Is Train Cargo Confidentiality Agreements Necessary?

[GostHacked]

Who the hell really knows what that dangerous goods sign on the side of a transport truck or rail car means anyway? I wonder if it meant anything to the people in Lac Megantic if they saw that sign hurling at them as the train exploded. Even if they'd had the training to identify it, it was a lie anyway. What was on the manifest was not what was in the railcar. Why shouldn't people know what is going through their town? Most of them probably wouldn't give a damn anyway. Some others may seek safety precautions that would prevent another Lac Megantic.

Good points. We are relying on the same people that want this confidentiality to be responsible for proper labeling.

[Michael Hardner]

Terrorist have a hard time transporting the amount of chemicals a train can.

Cite ? So ?

A terror attack is targeted and mostly localized,

Cite ? So ?

a train accident happens anywhere/anytime and the damage much greater.

Damage greater ?

More train accidents have happened in Canada in the last year compared to terror attacks of the past 10 years.

More people have died because of one train incident at Lac Megantic than terror related deaths of the past 10 years.

Iam more likely to die by a train accident than a terror attack.

So, it's not worth protecting against terror attacks ?

There's very little logic in any of this.

All I'm pointing out is that the government/police power vs. safety/security trade-off really seems to change for people based on their politics. If the safety risk is a corporation then it changes our perception, versus whether it's a domestic terrorist.

[Michael Hardner]

I don't for a minute believe that you actually think that. You know exactly why this is qualitatively different.

I am not expressing my opinion here - I'm challenging others to express their principles in a way that specifically excludes political perceptions. To try to be objective.

I tried to do it with GH, and he came back with:

- Terrorists have a hard time using railroad for their plans(Which to me means that extra government control/surveillance power is effective in reducing security risks)

- Terror attacks are mostly localized (Which is not true for all possible scenarios, and again doesn't speak to why we shouldn't allow government surveillance powers)

- Train accidents have damage "much greater" (Not proven, and anyway doesn't address why we shouldn't try to prevent 9/11 disasters. 9/11 caused more damage than the Lac Megantic catastrophe.)

- More train accidents happen than terror attacks (See above)

--- ---

I try to challenge my own beliefs and principles, and sometimes I admit that I'm just wrong. I like to help people by challenging their beliefs and principles. I may even agree with their ultimate opinion, but not how they got to it.

[eyeball]

Lac Magnetic proves you wrong. The train made an unscheduled departure which means all times filed before would have no relevance to the investigators. The only thing that matters is understanding what went wrong.

So, the next accident could just as easily prove me right. In any case the only tangible reason you've given for not filing times and schedules is to deliberately keep a nefarious troublemaking public in the dark. Surely you can see how greater official opacity only increases the demand for greater transparency. That's not the public's fault.

[eyeball]

There's very little logic in any of this.

The desire for greater transparency is entirely logical in the face of calls for greater secrecy. I expect it works both ways too. There's probably some smert cookie somewhere who can even measure the phenomenon mathematically and make fancy graphs and such with the data.

[TimG]

In any case the only tangible reason you've given for not filing times and schedules is to deliberately keep a nefarious troublemaking public in the dark.

Over regulation is a huge problem in our society because too many yahoos think that any time there is a problem we will just pass more regulations with no thought to cost or the efficacy of the regulations. The only way to prevent the regulation yahoos from destroying the economy is to demand that every regulation actually serve a concrete purpose which cannot be served with a lesser regulation.

When it comes to this issue no one has provided any argument that shows that such notifications serve a useful purpose. The argument that towns have a right to know what is on the trains is already covered under the existing hazardous goods regulations.

Edited May 8, 2014 by TimG

[eyeball]

The biggest problem by far is the deteriorating trust between the governed and their governments.

Your prescriptions are like putting gasoline on a fire.

[guyser]

Because it serves no public purpose. It does not increase safety because it does not help people plan or prepare. all it does is allow unethical enviro-parasites to whip up public fears.

Knowing the danger of certain stock rolling right by neighbourhoods means they(community,f-fighters/hosp etc) wont do anything to prepare.

Wonderful logic.

By that I mean none at all.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Guyser2

[GostHacked]

I am not expressing my opinion here - I'm challenging others to express their principles in a way that specifically excludes political perceptions. To try to be objective.

Throwing out red herring arguments does not challenge anything.

[PIK]

Absolute nonsense.

I am shipping something very expensive on trains, I would not want anybody to know, it is called privacy. People break into box cars all the time. Man all this bytching about everything is getting tiresome.

[TimG]

Knowing the danger of certain stock rolling right by neighbourhoods means they(community,f-fighters/hosp etc) wont do anything to prepare.

Logic fail. This discussion is about getting advance notice of every train. This not about notifying communities about what the possible hazardous goods are. The latter is all that is needed to prepare. The former is needed only for scaremongering.

[GostHacked]

I am shipping something very expensive on trains, I would not want anybody to know, it is called privacy. People break into box cars all the time. Man all this bytching about everything is getting tiresome.

We are speaking to the transportation of hazardous materials via rail and the secrecy surrounding that, not the transportation of expensive automobiles.

[TimG]

We are speaking to the transportation of hazardous materials via rail and the secrecy surrounding that

What secrecy? So far the only evidence is the company running the Lac Megantic line broke the existing rules by not labeling the cars properly. All that means is the existing regulations need better enforcement.

[eyeball]

No, the regulators need enforcing.

More honest governments will lead to better business practices.

[Michael Hardner]

There's probably some smert cookie somewhere who can even measure the phenomenon mathematically and make fancy graphs and such with the data.[/size]

Yes, as long as there is a principle behind it all rather than just "I don't like this".

[Michael Hardner]

Throwing out red herring arguments does not challenge anything.

Ok, I guess you don't have a response to my dismantling of your points including:

"a train accident happens anywhere/anytime and the damage much greater [than a terrorist attack]."

That's what you claimed, right ?

Are you standing by that ? If it's not so will you retract it ? How do you feel about retracting false claims, as I'm thinking now I have never seen you do it.

[On Guard for Thee]

Agreed. Mixing them up confuses issues. This op is about the demand that every town on a route be given advance warning of exactly what is in each train. This has nothing to do with rail companies that fail to comply with existing regulations.

Wrong. All that is required is that railways report that any train on the tracks could have hazardous goods and what level of hazard could be involved. The town can then prepare. After that proper labelling on the cars is all first responders need if there is an incident.

Sounds like a pretty "loosey goosey" for of SMS to me. Certainly doesn't work like that in the aviation business. As for your proper labelling, what if the first responders can't see the labels for the flames engulfing the cars?

[TimG]

Certainly doesn't work like that in the aviation business.

The aviation business does not provide reports to every town the plane happens to fly over. I also don't think there is any requirement for "advance reporting" (i.e. two days from now a plane containing hazardous goods is landing at noon). If any reports are available it is only after a plane has taken off.

If you really wanted to replicate what the airlines do the rail companies could post on their website when a train containing hazardous goods is moving and what route it is taking. But this is a lot less than what the op is demanding.

Edited May 8, 2014 by TimG

[On Guard for Thee]

The aviation business does not provide reports to every town the plane happens to fly over. I also don't think there is any requirement for "advance reporting" (i.e. two days from now a plane containing hazardous goods is landing at noon). If any reports are available it is only after a plane has taken off.

If you really wanted to replicate what the airlines do the rail companies could post on their website when a train containing hazardous goods is moving and what route it is taking. But this is a lot less than what the op is demanding.

Aviation does something similar to what you suggest. Very specific information about any hazardous goods is put into the system. Of course planes don't fly through multiple towns to get to destination, but destination will know of everything that is aboard every plane intending to land there. And anywhere the plane goes down along it's route the info is passed to the appropriate emergency people so they can be aware of the hazards they face.

[TimG]

Very specific information about any hazardous goods is put into the system.

The issue is when the notification is provided. With aviation I believe the notice is provided once the plane takes off because prior to take off they don't know what the final manifest will be. The op seems to think that railway companies can know far enough in advance to notify every town and village that they pass though. This is the unreasonable requirement. Remove that and only require that manifests be posted on the internet once a train is loaded and moving then it should be no big deal for rail operators. Keep in mind that reporting hazardous labels does not necessarily mean people know what is in the train nor do they need to know in most cases. Edited May 8, 2014 by TimG

[PIK]

We are speaking to the transportation of hazardous materials via rail and the secrecy surrounding that, not the transportation of expensive automobiles.

My mistake.

[eyeball]

The issue is the necessity of confidentiality and secrecy in the public's domain and every time the government and business feels it needs more these days alarm bells start ringing. It's like a force of nature.

As for gathering data for no good reason, here's a real example.

Federal government departments are collecting data on Canadian citizens via their social media accounts for no good reason, Canada's privacy watchdog says.

Story

[cybercoma]

Tim, which oil company do you work for?

[On Guard for Thee]

The issue is when the notification is provided. With aviation I believe the notice is provided once the plane takes off because prior to take off they don't know what the final manifest will be. The op seems to think that railway companies can know far enough in advance to notify every town and village that they pass though. This is the unreasonable requirement. Remove that and only require that manifests be posted on the internet once a train is loaded and moving then it should be no big deal for rail operators. Keep in mind that reporting hazardous labels does not necessarily mean people know what is in the train nor do they need to know in most cases.

Same with a train as it is with a plane. By the time either is ready to depart, every piece of dangerous should be accurately manifested. I'm not so sure the internet is the right place for it, but the appropriate authorities could easily be made aware. And when I say accurate, I mean accurate. Crude oil does not explode like the stuff did in Lac Megantic.

[TimG]

Same with a train as it is with a plane. By the time either is ready to depart, every piece of dangerous should be accurately manifested.

It is also required under current regulations.

I'm not so sure the internet is the right place for it, but the appropriate authorities could easily be made aware.

This issue is who is responsible for setting up and maintaining the reporting network. If the rail companies do it then the Internet is the only practical way. If the government wants to take responsibility then they can establish access/notification rules that make sense. The companies would simply file the reports which they are currently required to report anyways. Edited May 8, 2014 by TimG