WestCoastRunner Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 An impaired hit and run driver was sentenced to 7 and 1/2 years for killing two women and maiming a man. He left a bar prior to ramming into them after being cut off at the bar. While there he was served 8 drinks including 6 double highballs. I recall this accident as it was very tragic. A woman and her husband had stopped on a highway to offer assistance to a car accident. While helping out, the woman was struck and killed by this drunk driver as well as the woman in the original car accident. There was no mention of the bar being fined or being held responsible for over serving the driver. When I drive by a bar and see the parking lot full of cars, I wonder how they are getting home. Do they have a DD? Perhaps it's time for bars to arrange shuttle buses to deliver their patrons home safely. The article is here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 Sure. This bar in Ontario had to close - the owners were charged with manslaughter after a patron was in an accident, though the charges were later dropped. http://www.intelligencer.ca/2013/07/05/angry-beaver-case-tossed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 Do they have a DD? Perhaps it's time for bars to arrange shuttle buses to deliver their patrons home safely. The article is here. Some do have a DD. Some might call a taxi and get their car the next day. Some may call the service that drives you and your car home for you. But suggesting a bar should arrange shuttle buses to deliver people is ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted May 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 Some do have a DD. Some might call a taxi and get their car the next day. Some may call the service that drives you and your car home for you. But suggesting a bar should arrange shuttle buses to deliver people is ridiculous. Why is it ridiculous? Can you expand on your reasoning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted May 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 Sure. This bar in Ontario had to close - the owners were charged with manslaughter after a patron was in an accident, though the charges were later dropped. http://www.intelligencer.ca/2013/07/05/angry-beaver-case-tossed Interesting. The bar also let Howes know of their free and easily available designated driver service. Sounds kind of like a shuttle service. Good on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 Bars can try whatever options they want to, but ultimately the responsibility rests with the drinker. It would not bother me in the slightest if a bar staff called the cops on someone they saw getting into a car after drinking, but no way should they be held legally responsible for someone's actions after they have left the bar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 Should be? They routinely are. The insurance for a bar is probably the single largest expense (ongoing) that a bar/restaurant/nightclub has on its books. No bar ( in Ont), no licenced liquored event be it a wedding, or shower or family reunion can be issued a permit without SmartServe licenced staff on hand and almost every venue requires liquor liability coverage and proof thereof before even putting on foot on the poperty. In the link that MH put up, it can be seen how hard (and thus rare) it is for any Crown to have criminal charges put on a bar owner or server. The intent , lack of knowledge a bar owner/server would have of each patrons vehicle availablity and so on speaks to that. All that said, there is nothign to prevent these places from getting sued into oblivion by the surviving family members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted May 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 Bars can also be shut down for days at a time if they are caught serving minors. This can really hurt their bottom line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 Why is it ridiculous?It isnt in the least. Ignorance of whats happening out at bars/venues and thinking they know is whats at play. Can you expand on your reasoning.Oh I doubt that he can. He hasnt a clue about this. Bars/venues/nightclubs routinely set up shuttle busses. I have been at 3 parties in the last 2 years that used them. OOps, make that 4 , the wedding in Australia I just attended used 2 shuttle buses. Worked great, could drink all you wanted then climbed into a nice bus and dropped off at the condo moments later. It appears to be popular in places lacking transit, or lacking effective transit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted May 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 It appears to be popular in places lacking transit, or lacking effective transit It's a great idea but I rarely see it happening here in BC, perhaps because as you have mentioned, there is plenty of transit here in the lower mainland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 Bars can try whatever options they want to, but ultimately the responsibility rests with the drinker.No it doesnt. It would not bother me in the slightest if a bar staff called the cops on someone they saw getting into a car after drinking, but no way should they be held legally responsible for someone's actions after they have left the bar. They kept plying them with alcohol, knowingly serving drunks (which BTW is illegal), knowing they have car keys on them, knowing they can barely walk straight let alone drive .....and they are to be let off the hook? Not in this country. Establishing the facts of the case are hard to do, but it is done and if the bar etc is found to do any or all of the above (or more as htere is lots more criteria) and get sued......they generally lose the suits. The insurance premiums paid by these establishments confirms the risk presented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted May 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 Bars can try whatever options they want to, but ultimately the responsibility rests with the drinker. I think the onus should be on the bar/pub to find out if the patron they are serving drinks to has a ride home (assuming this patron is getting totally hammered). If not, they should arrange transportation, otherwise they need to assume responsibility if this driver kills someone while driving home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 I think the onus should be on the bar/pub to find out if the patron they are serving drinks to has a ride home (assuming this patron is getting totally hammered). If not, they should arrange transportation, otherwise they need to assume responsibility if this driver kills someone while driving home.You can be sure if they dont, a court will all things considered. Not to mention the Prov LLB will slap them with fines up the ying yang Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 Why is it ridiculous? Can you expand on your reasoning. I don't think it's ridiculous if they want to. I don't think it should be forced though. There's just way too many variables that make the logistics of it unmanagable. It sounds great. But anyone that's a knee-jerk proponent of this idea hasn't thought it all of the way through. The costs, especially for added insurance, the scheduling of said shuttle buses. Will it be every hour? Will people get dropped off at their home? If so, how long is that going to take? Probably hours. If they're not going to get dropped off at their home, where then? Is the bar then liable for what happens to somebody at the area of the drop off? What if somebody then gets in a car and drives the rest of the way? Also, this increase in costs is going to impact the prices of food and beverages. Will customers want to pay the added costs? If they don't, what will happen to the economic viability of the establishment? See, there's many questions that need to be answered before so clumsily and ham-handedly going face first into thinking that this is such a great idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 This idiotic reasoning could be applied to virtually every industry. For example, should Goodlife Fitness make sure that their clients aren't working out too strenuously, lest somebody does physical harm to themselves. Should Tim Horton's monitor a customers donut intake, as to prevent them from suffering from diabetes or obesity? Should the LCBO and/or Beer Stores limit the amount of alcohol customers can purchase, as to prevent alcoholism? Should retailers have to limit the purchases of customers if they think they're overspending? No more personal responsibility! It's all up to somebody else! Yay! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted May 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 See, there's many questions that need to be answered before so clumsily and ham-handedly going face first into thinking that this is such a great idea. You should probably meet with families of victims who have been killed by drunk drivers before you suggest this idea is clumsy and ridiculous. You need to develop some empathy skills. As was mentioned in an article posted above, a bar does offer free rides home. That is a start. Try and keep an open mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted May 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 This idiotic reasoning could be applied to virtually every industry. For example, should Goodlife Fitness make sure that their clients aren't working out too strenuously, lest somebody does physical harm to themselves. Should Tim Horton's monitor a customers donut intake, as to prevent them from suffering from diabetes or obesity? Should the LCBO and/or Beer Stores limit the amount of alcohol customers can purchase, as to prevent alcoholism? Should retailers have to limit the purchases of customers if they think they're overspending? No more personal responsibility! It's all up to somebody else! Yay! You are serious aren't you. Comparing people killed by drunk drivers to the above? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 Maybe they should make the manufacturers responsible for the harm their dope causes, just like any other lowlife substance dealer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 You are serious aren't you. Comparing people killed by drunk drivers to the above? I'm comparing your eagerness to push off somebody's responsibility on to other people. A more logical remedy would be a breathalizer device in automobiles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted May 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 Maybe they should make the manufacturers responsible for the harm their dope causes, just like any other lowlife substance dealer. Well, take a look at the case where they are going after the dealers who supplied the heroin to Hoffman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted May 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 I'm comparing your eagerness to push off somebody's responsibility on to other people. A more logical remedy would be a breathalizer device in automobiles. Someone who is inebriated does not make good choices (see Rob Ford). A bartender can make that call. I agree that breathalizers are a great idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 (edited) Someone who is inebriated does not make good choices (see Rob Ford). A bartender can make that call. I agree that breathalizers are a great idea.Bartenders can't keep track of every person who leaves the bar that might be over the legal limit and then ensure that they don't drive their car, which might be parked several blocks away. That's just silly. People who are drunk and who drive bear the responsibility of their actions. Edited May 1, 2014 by The_Squid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted May 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 Bartenders can't keep track of every person who leaves the bar that might be over the legal limit and then ensure that they don't drive their car, which might be parked several blocks away. That's just silly. People who are drunk and who drive bear the responsibility of their actions. I agree absolutely that drivers bear responsibility. I am suggesting that bars need to step up to the plate and take on more responsibility, in whatever capacity that may be. I really don't know the answer to that, but we need to keep an open mind and not take the position of knocking down this issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted May 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 People who are drunk and who drive bear the responsibility of their actions. Why do you think that bars should not take responsibility if they over serve their patrons? In this particular accident, the bar recalls serving this patron and how much they served them. They could have easily called a cab for this person or insisted that this person not drive home or have done whatever they could to prevent this person from getting behind the wheel of their car. Maybe they did, I really don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 Why do you think that bars should not take responsibility if they over serve their patrons? What does "over serve" mean? 2 drink maximum for everyone? No one can ever get drunk in a bar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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