Ontario Budget 2014 -- Election

[Wayward Son]

There's only 1 NDP.

There is only 1 NDP, but I assume that you are including the CCF in there as well. With Tommy Douglas inheriting a large deficit and debt, and then producing 17 consecutive balanced budgets and the complete elimination of that inherited provincial debt.

Edit: on second thought maybe you were not also including the CCF. This link claims that since 1980 the NDP has the best record of producing balanced budgets. I obviously do not guarantee that the claims are true, and of course it does not take into consideration that some governments inherit large surpluses and throw that away (Harper) and others inherit large deficits and balance the books (Harris), or that the fiscal situation in any province is affected by conditions outside the province (and country).

Edited May 16, 2014 by Wayward Son

[CPCFTW]

Maybe they're worried about the fact their kids aren't learning to read and write or do addition. Maybe they're worried about the growing budget deficit. Maybe they have this thing about the outrageous lies the Liberals have told since the election that put McGuinty into power, or their habit of using public money for the benefit of their own party, or the skyrocketing electricity costs...

Yes and maybe they don't want to give Wynne another $100 a month to save for retirement at 3% return buying Ontario green bonds. People are struggling to pay their student and credit card debts and Wynne wants to force them to invest at 3% for 40 years instead of letting them pay off higher interest debts.

[Michael Hardner]

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/budget/estimates/2014-15/index.html

2014-2015 Budget - Expenditure Estimates

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Yes and maybe they don't want to give Wynne another $100 a month to save for retirement at 3% return buying Ontario green bonds. People are struggling to pay their student and credit card debts and Wynne wants to force them to invest at 3% for 40 years instead of letting them pay off higher interest debts.

Well, Ontario teachers pay 13% of their salary into their pension... and people hate them for it. Maybe if people were forced to save some money for retirement instead of blowing it luxuries they'd have less to hate teachers for?

Granted, the OTPP is a private investment firm that makes a crapload of cash but, maybe Ontario should try that model?

[MiddleClassCentrist]

There's only 1 NDP.

Depends on who is looking and the lense they are looking through.

For example, through the "Conservative Partisan Lense" there is a Socialist Spendthrift Party

[CPCFTW]

Well, Ontario teachers pay 13% of their salary into their pension... and people hate them for it. Maybe if people were forced to save some money for retirement instead of blowing it luxuries they'd have less to hate teachers for?

Granted, the OTPP is a private investment firm that makes a crapload of cash but, maybe Ontario should try that model?

I think people also hate them for the 4 months vacation and 15+ bankable sick days.. Not just because they have a pension (although I will note the taxpayer, as the employer of teachers, makes significant contributions to the plan as well).

[Big Guy]

There is no mystery in setting fiscal targets. The question is what are the people effected prepared to accept. With growing a deficit you kick the problems down the road. With cutting a deficit you get service cuts and public service trimming AND you get strikes, disruption and slower or inferior service.

It looks to me that with Liberals, we will get an increasing deficit and pretty well the status quo. The problems are the same and the debt continues to increase. Basically the same as has been happening. With Hudak, he has made no secret that he is using the Mike Harris approach and the consequences of that. We can expect the same reaction.

The voter will have to decide based on his/her lifestyle, family conditions and vision of society.

[Boges]

Wow people are really acting like moving the Public Service back to 2009 levels will be the apocalypse.

Contracting out means no less service and attrition means many won't be fired. Smoky Thomas from OPSEU has admitted that there are many useless middle-manager.

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/05/14/hudak-in-top-form

[Michael Hardner]

I think people also hate them for the 4 months vacation and 15+ bankable sick days.. Not just because they have a pension (although I will note the taxpayer, as the employer of teachers, makes significant contributions to the plan as well).

4 months' vacation isn't accurate. There is time off in the summer and at Christmas, yes, but also an expectation of doing work at night which does count.

Bankable sick days were taken away as well:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/06/05/is_the_era_of_sick_days_ending.html

So does this mean you've changed your mind now that the facts are shown ?

But bankable sick days weren’t keeping teachers from staying home. Last school year, before their bankable days were taken away, Ontario teachers took an average of 8.5 days off due to sickness.

[CPCFTW]

4 months' vacation isn't accurate. There is time off in the summer and at Christmas, yes, but also an expectation of doing work at night which does count.

Bankable sick days were taken away as well:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/06/05/is_the_era_of_sick_days_ending.html

So does this mean you've changed your mind now that the facts are shown ?

Yes my mind is changed because there is an expectation of unionized employees working during the summer.. And if they don't I'm sure the union will let them be fired! /sarcasm

I'm very glad the bankable sick days are gone but there's a lot more cutting to be done before I'm happy.

Edit: your link says teachers still have 3 bankable sick days?

Edited May 16, 2014 by CPCFTW

[cybercoma]

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/budget/estimates/2014-15/index.html2014-2015 Budget - Expenditure Estimates

you should spell out your point, so people don't have to make your argument through assumptions.

[Michael Hardner]

Yes my mind is changed because there is an expectation of unionized employees working during the summer.. And if they don't I'm sure the union will let them be fired! /sarcasm

You ignored my point about working nights, though.

I'm very glad the bankable sick days are gone but there's a lot more cutting to be done before I'm happy.

Edit: your link says teachers still have 3 bankable sick days?

It seems that you'll likely never be happy, as I just highlighted a major concession. If you simply don't like teachers, then you're not a good person to ask these questions IMO.

Would you be happy if they worked for minimum wage with no union protection ?

How are you hoping to get there, in order for you to be happy ?

[Michael Hardner]

Also - CPC - Fire and police have 5 times the number of bankable days ?

[Boges]

They never really conceded bankable sick days. There was a prolonged "Work to Rule" campaign until Wynne came to power and conceded a bunch of other stuff to make nice with the Unions.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Boges

[Argus]

I think people also hate them for the 4 months vacation and 15+ bankable sick days.. Not just because they have a pension (although I will note the taxpayer, as the employer of teachers, makes significant contributions to the plan as well).

Being unable to fire them, regardless of how incompetent they might be, doesn't help either.

[Argus]

Also - CPC - Fire and police have 5 times the number of bankable days ?

If so, take them away.

[Argus]

Wow people are really acting like moving the Public Service back to 2009 levels will be the apocalypse.

Contracting out means no less service and attrition means many won't be fired. Smoky Thomas from OPSEU has admitted that there are many useless middle-manager.

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/05/14/hudak-in-top-form

Funny who believes in contracting out now, like former Liberal finance minister Dwight Duncan.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/05/09/even-an-ex-liberal-finance-minister-warned-wynne-that-deep-spending-cuts-are-needed-to-balance-ontarios-budget/

[Boges]

Funny who believes in contracting out now, like former Liberal finance minister Dwight Duncan.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/05/09/even-an-ex-liberal-finance-minister-warned-wynne-that-deep-spending-cuts-are-needed-to-balance-ontarios-budget/

I said earlier that a lot of what Hudak is planning comes straight from the Drummond Report. A report the McGuinty government paid for then largely ignored. Except for some damaging policies surrounding Horse Racing (Wynne will probably get trounced in Rural Canada because of it)

People have been telling these guys for years that their spending is unsustainable and now that Hudak comes a long and says they need to pare back the spending people accuse him of wanting to kill people.

[Big Guy]

Wow people are really acting like moving the Public Service back to 2009 levels will be the apocalypse.

Contracting out means no less service and attrition means many won't be fired. Smoky Thomas from OPSEU has admitted that there are many useless middle-manager.

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/05/14/hudak-in-top-form

If you are referring to my post then please notice that it is not an apocalypse that I predicted but exactly the same kinds of disruptions that we had under the Harris era. If the Hudak government plans to employ the same austerity measures as did the Harris government then why not expect the same reactions from the public sector? Why would people not react the same way they did before when they thought and believed that they were not being treated fairly?

[Boges]

It's funny because Paul Martin and Jean Chretien were employing similar austerity at the same time and it was followed by times a great economic growth for both governments.

I also don't think Hudak should make his policies based on public service unions having a hissy fit. They'll do it anyway if they don't get what they want. See McGuinty's fight with the teacher after years of giving them every single thing they wanted.

[CPCFTW]

Also - CPC - Fire and police have 5 times the number of bankable days ?

I'll be happy when they're compensated similarly to arts grads in the private sector.

E.g. 30-40k starting salary. Minimal job security (only the best teachers should survive and thrive). 3-5 non-bankable sick days and 10 vacation days with no pension.

Teachers college can go to.. I don't think it adds any value.

I have the same opinion of other public sector jobs including police.

Edited May 16, 2014 by CPCFTW

[Wayward Son]

It's funny because Paul Martin and Jean Chretien were employing similar austerity at the same time and it was followed by times a great economic growth for both governments.

Things do not happen in a vacuum. The austerity of the Chretien government happened when the global economy was rosy, and the US economy was moving into hyperdrive. Today there is still global economic turmoil. The same policy may work wonders at one point in time, and cause economic upheaval at a different point in time.

[Boges]

The feds have balanced their books without destroying our economy. Ontario has 54% of the debt of the provinces. Meaning a Third of the provinces accounts for more than half of the countries deficit at the provincial level. SOMETHING! has to be done.

[Michael Hardner]

you should spell out your point, so people don't have to make your argument through assumptions.

I only provided that link for reference.

[Wayward Son]

The feds have balanced their books without destroying our economy. Ontario has 54% of the debt of the provinces. Meaning a Third of the provinces accounts for more than half of the countries deficit at the provincial level. SOMETHING! has to be done.

Hudak is talking about cutting expenses by 6%.

The Harper government still has higher expenses now (280.6B) then they did at the time of the worst deficit (274.2B in 2009-10) and they there projected expenses in 2015-16 is 286.9B. Now obviously considering inflation the government has been showing spending restraint, but the vast majority of balancing the books was due to Revenues increasing. I don't have a problem with government restraint. I don't have a problem with cuts, even deep ones, when the global economy is strong. But most economists seem to rate significant cuts when the global economy is not strong as questionable at best.