WWWTT Posted November 22, 2014 Report Posted November 22, 2014 1. I think it's implicit in my response. If course moderators and facilitators have powers that the poster don't have. I think a key question, though, is whether those powers are being abused. 2. I think it's implicit in my response. To be clear: this site is what it is because of a solid core of posters who debate according to our shared values. Without them, we are nothing. But it's a stool with three legs, too. You seam bent on continuously stressing the "abuse of power" theme that you have created as a shield to justify your special status. Or lack thereof. Very convenient since it is almost impossible to prove that you have not been or have been biased towards posters due to influence imposed/encouraged from debating with them! Your approach is severely flawed. You either fail in considering highlighting what advantage could result from a moderator doubling as a poster, or you have considered, and realized that it is a dead end to only invite further criticism! You pick one! I would have thought that the moderators here would have at least have been better debaters. WWWTT Maple Leaf Web is now worth $720.00! Down over $1,500 in less than one year! Total fail of the moderation on this site! That reminds me, never ask Greg to be a business partner! NEVER!
cybercoma Posted November 22, 2014 Report Posted November 22, 2014 WWWTT, I think you misunderstand the scope of this project.
WWWTT Posted November 22, 2014 Report Posted November 22, 2014 Are you sure about that? If the value of this site keeps failing, it will require more out of pocket money to keep afloat. Greg has made it clear that he wants to increase traffic to this site. And we have made suggestions. Since MH has been a moderator/poster, traffic here has further declined, value has further receded! Coincidence? Hard to say now isn't it? Whatever the exact "scope" is, failure of this site into oblivion I'm sure isn't part of the goal. WWWTT Maple Leaf Web is now worth $720.00! Down over $1,500 in less than one year! Total fail of the moderation on this site! That reminds me, never ask Greg to be a business partner! NEVER!
Bonam Posted November 23, 2014 Report Posted November 23, 2014 (edited) Check again. We're taking a more active approach in dealing with insults and thread drift these days, so you should see less of that. It's not so much insults and thread drift, those one can simply ignore. It's the low level of what passes for the actual "debate" here these days. Conversation has increasingly polarized into camps, with very little ability to actually discuss anything, instead most threads consist of people just yelling past each other. MLW used to be nice for the overall ability to discuss things near the middle, but recently I feel like many of the "left wing" posters on here in particular have become increasingly hostile to any opposing views. Any dissenting opinion is quickly drowned out in ridicule, condescension, strawman fallacies, endless accusations of racism/bigotry/misogyny, etc, even where overt insults are not actually used. I fear this place is soon going to become another echo chamber. In regards to the conversation above, I think you've generally done a fine job as facilitator, and while your positions on many topics are clear, I've not seen you let them interfere with your duties. Nor do I think it's the moderation... you can't moderate away childish debate strategies. Perhaps the rising polarization and reduced debate quality on this forum is merely representative of the rising polarization and falling debate quality in the media and in society at large. Edited November 23, 2014 by Bonam
WestCoastRunner Posted November 23, 2014 Report Posted November 23, 2014 . MLW used to be nice for the overall ability to discuss things near the middle, but recently I feel like many of the "left wing" posters on here in particular have become increasingly hostile to any opposing views. Any dissenting opinion is quickly drowned out in ridicule, condescension, strawman fallacies, endless accusations of racism/bigotry/misogyny, etc, even where overt insults are not actually used. I fear this place is soon going to become another echo chamber. Perhaps you are just getting annoyed because individuals are standing up for their beliefs, values and the rights of minorities. I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
cybercoma Posted November 23, 2014 Report Posted November 23, 2014 Are you sure about that? If the value of this site keeps failing, it will require more out of pocket money to keep afloat. Greg has made it clear that he wants to increase traffic to this site. And we have made suggestions. Since MH has been a moderator/poster, traffic here has further declined, value has further receded! Coincidence? Hard to say now isn't it? Whatever the exact "scope" is, failure of this site into oblivion I'm sure isn't part of the goal. WWWTT This is not as big of a deal as you're making it out to be. I'm pretty sure Greg just keeps it afloat for the posters. There's no financial gain to be made here. Greg can speak for himself, but I doubt he has the time nor inclination to really put the work into making this some sort of profitable venture—as you mistakenly seem to think this is. The ship on this website sailed a long time ago. Now it's just the forum for the forum's sake. This isn't going to become another Rabble.
cybercoma Posted November 23, 2014 Report Posted November 23, 2014 (edited) It's not so much insults and thread drift, those one can simply ignore. It's the low level of what passes for the actual "debate" here these days. Conversation has increasingly polarized into camps, with very little ability to actually discuss anything, instead most threads consist of people just yelling past each other. MLW used to be nice for the overall ability to discuss things near the middle, but recently I feel like many of the "left wing" posters on here in particular have become increasingly hostile to any opposing views. Any dissenting opinion is quickly drowned out in ridicule, condescension, strawman fallacies, endless accusations of racism/bigotry/misogyny, etc, even where overt insults are not actually used. I fear this place is soon going to become another echo chamber. In regards to the conversation above, I think you've generally done a fine job as facilitator, and while your positions on many topics are clear, I've not seen you let them interfere with your duties. Nor do I think it's the moderation... you can't moderate away childish debate strategies. Perhaps the rising polarization and reduced debate quality on this forum is merely representative of the rising polarization and falling debate quality in the media and in society at large. If you're going to complain about the forum being polarized, perhaps lambasting solely the "left wing posters" is a tad hypocritical. Edited November 23, 2014 by cybercoma
WestCoastRunner Posted November 23, 2014 Report Posted November 23, 2014 This is not as big of a deal as you're making it out to be. I'm pretty sure Greg just keeps it afloat for the posters. There's no financial gain to be made here. Greg can speak for himself, but I doubt he has the time nor inclination to really put the work into making this some sort of profitable venture—as you mistakenly seem to think this is. The ship on this website sailed a long time ago. Now it's just the forum for the forum's sake. This isn't going to become another Rabble. There is no way this site can make money and they know it. To make money off a site, you need millions of visitors. It is quite simply a numbers game. You need the numbers to get the ad revenue. It's not going to happen here so I'm not sure what WWWTT is referring to. I think he is confused as to the purpose of this site as you mentioned earlier Cyber. I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
Bonam Posted November 23, 2014 Report Posted November 23, 2014 If you're going to complain about the forum being polarized, perhaps lambasting solely the "left wing posters" is a tad hypocritical. Perhaps, but that is where I have noticed the increased shrillness coming from.
cybercoma Posted November 23, 2014 Report Posted November 23, 2014 Perhaps, but that is where I have noticed the increased shrillness coming from. Because the Right can't get any lower than the bottom of the barrel where they were at.
jacee Posted November 23, 2014 Report Posted November 23, 2014 It's not so much insults and thread drift, those one can simply ignore. It's the low level of what passes for the actual "debate" here these days. Conversation has increasingly polarized into camps, with very little ability to actually discuss anything, instead most threads consist of people just yelling past each other. MLW used to be nice for the overall ability to discuss things near the middle, but recently I feel like many of the "left wing" posters on here in particular have become increasingly hostile to any opposing views. Any dissenting opinion is quickly drowned out in ridicule, condescension, strawman fallacies, endless accusations of racism/bigotry/misogyny, etc, even where overt insults are not actually used. I fear this place is soon going to become another echo chamber.When I first started reading this board some years back, it was an echo chamber of right wing opinions with some extreme white supremacist types dominating the discussions.That extremism has been cleaned up and there's a much better variety of views now along with a more civil discourse. I give Charles and Greg credit for expunging some of the ickier elements, and Michael credit for upping the quality of discussion to a more inclusive and respectful level. kudos. .
WWWTT Posted November 23, 2014 Report Posted November 23, 2014 The ship on this website sailed a long time ago. Now it's just the forum for the forum's sake. This isn't going to become another Rabble. Not sure what you're talking about using a ship? But it sounds like you started using the shovel to throw dirt on MLW's grave because in this world you can only decline for so long, and then it's gone, Seen several debate forums gone. And if this one goes, I guess we'll just pack up our handles and move on to the next debate forum. WWWTT was my handle on the TVO debate forum, and when the station there decided enough was enough and closed the doors for good, I moved here. WWWTT Maple Leaf Web is now worth $720.00! Down over $1,500 in less than one year! Total fail of the moderation on this site! That reminds me, never ask Greg to be a business partner! NEVER!
WWWTT Posted November 23, 2014 Report Posted November 23, 2014 There is no way this site can make money and they know it. To make money off a site, you need millions of visitors. It is quite simply a numbers game. You need the numbers to get the ad revenue. It's not going to happen here so I'm not sure what WWWTT is referring to. I think he is confused as to the purpose of this site as you mentioned earlier Cyber. That's funny because Greg clearly has said he wants to increase traffic. Either cybercoma and yourself have missed reading where he wrote this, or you failed to remember, you pick one! This obviously means that this site has to be able to sustain itself to some point. Regardless, these issues are just strawmen pulling away from the moderation. I'm not entertaining this anymore to avoid the FAILURE of the moderation! WWWTT Maple Leaf Web is now worth $720.00! Down over $1,500 in less than one year! Total fail of the moderation on this site! That reminds me, never ask Greg to be a business partner! NEVER!
WWWTT Posted November 23, 2014 Report Posted November 23, 2014 (edited) When I first started reading this board some years back, it was an echo chamber of right wing opinions with some extreme white supremacist types dominating the discussions. That extremism has been cleaned up and there's a much better variety of views now along with a more civil discourse. I give Charles and Greg credit for expunging some of the ickier elements, and Michael credit for upping the quality of discussion to a more inclusive and respectful level. kudos. . Total BS! You are part of the reason this has happened! You have completely failed in recognizing the value that YOU have brought to this site! Instead, the credit that you should have given yourself and other posters, you have misplaced on the moderators! Shame! All the moderators did was ban someone that was abusive. Are you saying that you would be incapable of doing the same thing if you had the exact same clearance on this site?!?!?!?! WWWTT Edited November 23, 2014 by WWWTT Maple Leaf Web is now worth $720.00! Down over $1,500 in less than one year! Total fail of the moderation on this site! That reminds me, never ask Greg to be a business partner! NEVER!
Derek 2.0 Posted November 23, 2014 Report Posted November 23, 2014 It's not so much insults and thread drift, those one can simply ignore. It's the low level of what passes for the actual "debate" here these days. Conversation has increasingly polarized into camps, with very little ability to actually discuss anything, instead most threads consist of people just yelling past each other. MLW used to be nice for the overall ability to discuss things near the middle, but recently I feel like many of the "left wing" posters on here in particular have become increasingly hostile to any opposing views. Any dissenting opinion is quickly drowned out in ridicule, condescension, strawman fallacies, endless accusations of racism/bigotry/misogyny, etc, even where overt insults are not actually used. I fear this place is soon going to become another echo chamber. I think thats true anywhere you go, but there are an equal amount of "right wing" posters that respond in kind......look at topics encompassing religion, be it Christianity, Islam or Judaism......some views expressed by "both sides", in my opinion are both disgusting and intolerant.
Argus Posted November 23, 2014 Author Report Posted November 23, 2014 Perhaps you are just getting annoyed because individuals are standing up for their beliefs, values and the rights of minorities. If the individuals in question wish to 'stand up' for something then let them attempt to debate it honestly. If instead they need to insult the other poster and insinuate motivation behind their positions then this site would be better off without them. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted November 23, 2014 Author Report Posted November 23, 2014 (edited) If you're going to complain about the forum being polarized, perhaps lambasting solely the "left wing posters" is a tad hypocritical. I dunno, there seems to be a surplus of wacky, nasty left wingers these days, while our supply of wacky, nasty right wingers has remained fairly stable, if not actually declined. Edited November 23, 2014 by Argus "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted November 23, 2014 Author Report Posted November 23, 2014 There is no way this site can make money and they know it. To make money off a site, you need millions of visitors. I doubt this site costs much to maintain. It's only text, with very few graphics. But I don't think they need to make profits. I think the idea is simply to expand viewership. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted November 23, 2014 Author Report Posted November 23, 2014 When I first started reading this board some years back, it was an echo chamber of right wing opinions with some extreme white supremacist types dominating the discussions. There have never been any white supremacists who survived here more than a couple of weeks. There have been occasional idiot right wingers, but they are quite outnumbered now by the idiot left wingers. And by 'idiot' I mean people who resort to attacking posters and insinuating motivations behind their positions rather than addressing and debating the actual pros and cons of the positions. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Big Guy Posted November 23, 2014 Report Posted November 23, 2014 (edited) Any opinion web page survives on differences of opinion. The topics which are most conducive to controversy are politics, religion and sex and generally dominate the site. These topics often incite passion and emotion. Anonymity adds to encouraging emotional outbursts. Add to those circumstances the people who enjoy getting other people angry and you have a recipe for potential mud slinging. I have noticed that the problems occur when after a while the avatars have established an obvious political leaning. Soon there is no attempt to actually "listen" to an opposing point of view but to make a knee jerk reaction - with nothing to add to a topic. It becomes my guy, team, leader, party etc is better than your guy, team, leader or party. There is also the mistaken assumption that to NOT challenge an opinion is to agree with it. I believe the serious poster has to apply some self discipline and control if he/she is to NOT allow the baiters and teasers to upset them. These disrupters are incapable of donating anything new to a discussion and but do have a need to be acknowledged in some manner. Any moderation has to be subjective because of the innuendoes that are often associated with statements. I have been given 4 warnings - for postings that I did not believe transgressed the guidelines or I would not have posted them. Moderation is a very difficult position to hold and I believe it is performed well on this site. If I thought any different I would move on. I also have never complained or sent in or "reported" a post. Edited November 23, 2014 by Big Guy Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Derek 2.0 Posted November 23, 2014 Report Posted November 23, 2014 (edited) Moderation is a very difficult position to hold and I believe it is performed well on this site. If I thought any different I would move on. I had issues with it in the past, but I too agree that it is currently performing well, namely when the advice handed down (ignore the "trolls") is heeded. Edited November 23, 2014 by Derek 2.0
WWWTT Posted November 23, 2014 Report Posted November 23, 2014 Moderation is a very difficult position to hold and I believe it is performed well on this site. If I thought any different I would move on. I also have never complained or sent in or "reported" a post. Conflicting comments here. So how do you know moderating is a hard job? Or are you guessing? Or even worse, are you taking a moderators word for it? It's a conflict when you say moderating is a hard job, then openly admit that you never made a report. Reporting an perceived infracting comment draws a moderators attention to a possible violation. WWWTT Maple Leaf Web is now worth $720.00! Down over $1,500 in less than one year! Total fail of the moderation on this site! That reminds me, never ask Greg to be a business partner! NEVER!
cybercoma Posted November 23, 2014 Report Posted November 23, 2014 I dunno, there seems to be a surplus of wacky, nasty left wingers these days, while our supply of wacky, nasty right wingers has remained fairly stable, if not actually declined. I actually agree with you.
jacee Posted November 24, 2014 Report Posted November 24, 2014 Total BS! You are part of the reason this has happened! You have completely failed in recognizing the value that YOU have brought to this site! aw shucks :-D Instead, the credit that you should have given yourself and other posters, you have misplaced on the moderators! Shame! All the moderators did was ban someone that was abusive. Are you saying that you would be incapable of doing the same thing if you had the exact same clearance on this site?!?!?!?! WWWTT Who the hell wants that thankless job! .
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