On Guard for Thee Posted March 22, 2014 Report Posted March 22, 2014 Right...so what's the problem ?! Different strokes for different folks...err...cultures. Which brings us back to the conclusion of failure. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 22, 2014 Report Posted March 22, 2014 Which brings us back to the conclusion of failure. Ah...so success in Afghanistan depends on cultural norms in Canada ?? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
eyeball Posted March 22, 2014 Report Posted March 22, 2014 No, ideological norms. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
On Guard for Thee Posted March 22, 2014 Report Posted March 22, 2014 Ah...so success in Afghanistan depends on cultural norms in Canada ?? If we didn't have "benchmark, why did we go? Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 22, 2014 Report Posted March 22, 2014 If we didn't have "benchmark, why did we go? Canadians still go to the U.S., but thousands die there each year from gun violence. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
On Guard for Thee Posted March 22, 2014 Report Posted March 22, 2014 Canadians still go to the U.S., but thousands die there each year from gun violence. Yeah how come you guys do that and we don't? Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 22, 2014 Report Posted March 22, 2014 Yeah how come you guys do that and we don't? Because... "God made man, but Samuel Colt made them equal". So is the U.S. a failure like Afghanistan ? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
On Guard for Thee Posted March 22, 2014 Report Posted March 22, 2014 Because... "God made man, but Samuel Colt made them equal". So is the U.S. a failure like Afghanistan ? Well kids gunning down other kids in high schools or theatres while the NRA idiots drone on about "taking the gun from my cold dead hand" don't contribute a lot to your success. They have similar gun laws in Afghanistan. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 22, 2014 Report Posted March 22, 2014 Well kids gunning down other kids in high schools or theatres while the NRA idiots drone on about "taking the gun from my cold dead hand" don't contribute a lot to your success. They have similar gun laws in Afghanistan. And yet, Canada is more integrated to the United States than to any other nation in the world. I'm just trying to prod more objective thinking about what constitutes cultural or ideological failure vis-a-vis Afghanistan. It's not as simple as it may seem. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
On Guard for Thee Posted March 22, 2014 Report Posted March 22, 2014 And yet, Canada is more integrated to the United States than to any other nation in the world. I'm just trying to prod more objective thinking about what constitutes cultural or ideological failure vis-a-vis Afghanistan. It's not as simple as it may seem. In Canada as well as the US we have a central government. We have provincial/state differences with that federal goverenment but overall we support the concept. Afghanistan does not. I worked 90 miles and 2 provinces away from Kabul. Nobody there recognized Karzai, and wouldn't even if he wasn't a hand picked US puppet. They want a local government, and what you do on your side of the provincial border is up to you, leave us alone. Been that way for a long time. Probably will be for some time to come. Quote
Big Guy Posted March 22, 2014 Author Report Posted March 22, 2014 Update; University of Ottawa scholar Stuart Hendin worked in Kabul for most of the past six months teaching “rule of law” to Afghan police, judges and prosecutors under a program sponsored by the International Development Law Organization. After a recent shooting at a “secure” restaurant he stated; “I come away sad and disappointed that I failed, in the macro sense. The police I worked with are functionally illiterate, the judges make the equivalent of $80/month and how can they apply law when their have to sell their judgements to survive?”. Though on leave from Kabul, Hendin is cancelling the remainder of his contract in the wake of Thursday’s attack due to “an ultimatum from my wife.” “I think the situation now is that when it comes to security, whoever offers the most money gets the loyalty on that day. It’s heartbreaking. But it is a reality that I’m convinced outsiders cannot solve. Afghans themselves are going to have to take ownership.” Looks like things are going backwards over there! Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
eyeball Posted March 22, 2014 Report Posted March 22, 2014 I'm just trying to prod more objective thinking about what constitutes cultural or ideological failure vis-a-vis Afghanistan. It's not as simple as it may seem. What makes you think it's so complex? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted March 22, 2014 Report Posted March 22, 2014 In Canada as well as the US we have a central government. We have provincial/state differences with that federal goverenment but overall we support the concept. Afghanistan does not. I worked 90 miles and 2 provinces away from Kabul. Nobody there recognized Karzai, and wouldn't even if he wasn't a hand picked US puppet. They want a local government, and what you do on your side of the provincial border is up to you, leave us alone. Been that way for a long time. Probably will be for some time to come. Get rid of the sexism and religiosity and I'd probably emigrate there. Leave us alone? What you do on your side of the border is your business? Sounds like paradise to me. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Argus Posted March 22, 2014 Report Posted March 22, 2014 (edited) They are even expected from "backward" western nations with hate speech laws, native reserve systems, and government funded/controlled broadcaster(s). The US has all those. Was that what you were referring to ? Edited March 22, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 22, 2014 Report Posted March 22, 2014 What makes you think it's so complex? Asks Quebec separatists. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 22, 2014 Report Posted March 22, 2014 The US has all those. Was that what you were referring to or were you simply trolling again? Yes...the U.S. has many things that Canadians find to be "backwards", and yet it is not perceived as a "failure" like Afghanistan. If leading one to more objective thinking in the abstract is trolling to you, then I apologize for making this too hard. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
eyeball Posted March 22, 2014 Report Posted March 22, 2014 Asks Quebec separatists. What did they tell you? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 22, 2014 Report Posted March 22, 2014 What did they tell you? They said that they are a separate and unique tribe. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
eyeball Posted March 22, 2014 Report Posted March 22, 2014 Sounds pretty uncomplicatet but you're still confused about Afghanistan. Why is that? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 22, 2014 Report Posted March 22, 2014 Sounds pretty uncomplicatet but you're still confused about Afghanistan. Why is that? Because Afghanistan doesn't have a "Clarity Act" and two official languages...yet. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Argus Posted March 22, 2014 Report Posted March 22, 2014 Yes...the U.S. has many things that Canadians find to be "backwards", and yet it is not perceived as a "failure" like Afghanistan. If leading one to more objective thinking in the abstract is trolling to you, then I apologize for making this too hard. But this discussion is not about civilized countries. It's about the potential for an uncivilized country to moderate itself into a civilized country, which it has shown little sign of doing despite the presence and influence of the troops and advisers of civilized countries on its soil. Therefore, the likelihood of it reforming itself after they leave, given the instability of its government and near certainty of the Taliban returning, approaches nil. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Michael Hardner Posted March 22, 2014 Report Posted March 22, 2014 ... which it has shown little sign of doing ... How are you measuring the progress of said signs ? BC has pointed out some thoughtful comparisons to so-called regressive practices in so-called progressive places. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Argus Posted March 22, 2014 Report Posted March 22, 2014 How are you measuring the progress of said signs ? BC has pointed out some thoughtful comparisons to so-called regressive practices in so-called progressive places. No, BC has done no such thing. BC has attempted to suggest that the state foregoing the right to force wives to testify against their husbands is akin to forbidding a wife or children from giving testimony against the husband and father at any time for any reason. Which means, of course, that if a man beats his wife to within an inch of her life she cannot give any testimony against him. If he rapes his daughter and pimps out his son, none of the kids or the wife can complain. The comparison is ludicrous. And I would suggest your evident believe this was intended to be taken as a serious comparison is just as absurd. We are speaking of a culture which forces ten year olds to marry fifty year olds. We are talking of a culture where woman have no rights, including the right to education, where religious minorities have no rights, where extreme violence is seen as the just punishment for any variation from an extremely rigid interpretation of Islamism. Want to hold a gay rights march in Kabul? Don't worry about the Taliban, the locals in Afghanistan's most sophisticated western city will be frantic to beat you to death before the Taliban even hear about it. Regressive western practices? Name one which any sane person could logically compare to the state of the cultural primitivism of Afghanistan. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 22, 2014 Report Posted March 22, 2014 But this discussion is not about civilized countries. It's about the potential for an uncivilized country to moderate itself into a civilized country, which it has shown little sign of doing despite the presence and influence of the troops and advisers of civilized countries on its soil. Therefore, the likelihood of it reforming itself after they leave, given the instability of its government and near certainty of the Taliban returning, approaches nil. Again, you are refusing to objectively consider what the attributes of a "civilized" country are/should be. My country still has the death penalty, thousands of gun homicides, millions of privately owned hand guns, and permitted "hate speech". Is it "civilized" by Canadian standards ? At one time, the USA engaged in violent civil war with over 600,000 dead. Oh, and there was that earlier Revolution thing with the monarchy. Got slaves ? Why does Afghanistan have to be pacified and settled so quickly to your standards ? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Michael Hardner Posted March 22, 2014 Report Posted March 22, 2014 I said thoughtful comparison, which you are doing in your very post. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
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