Boeing 777 Disappears Near Vietnam

[Wilber]

From what they were saying yesterday, if they can get one more good connection, they will be able to triangulate with the other one. It would be cruel if they can't.

[WWWTT]

I think you may have an exaggerated idea of what a transponder does. It doesn't identify the aircraft to anyone but the air traffic controllers who are controlling it. When the crew gets their ATC clearance, they are assigned a four digit code which they enter into the transponder. This allows air traffic control to match the return on their radar to the flight number they are controlling. Other than the aircraft's altitude, it doesn't contain or transmit any other information.

On edit: ATC may share information with other parties but it doesn't come directly from the aircraft.

Ya so what?

All this info is easily available.

Here's a couple of examples I found after a couple of minutes.

http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVjcrY0RTi0EA7jsXFwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTByMG04Z2o2BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--/RV=2/RE=1397019563/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.avionicslist.com%2farticles%2fhow_transponders_work.php/RK=0/RS=2tjWIIrdbzp36aXNVHDNF.fGKNI-

http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVjcrY0RTi0EA8TsXFwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTBybnV2cXQwBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMgRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--/RV=2/RE=1397019563/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fen.wikipedia.org%2fwiki%2fTransponder_%28aviation%29/RK=0/RS=Rft7zFJDAKuX8nCt_TYYrU3d5yQ-

Nice try to belittle the importance of a transponder.

Lets get back to WHY the transponder was turned OFF in the first place!

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

From what they were saying yesterday, if they can get one more good connection, they will be able to triangulate with the other one. It would be cruel if they can't.

Ya I guess it would be cruel to those who believe the plane was destroyed and all on board are dead.

WWWTT

[Wilber]

Ya so what?

All this info is easily available.

Here's a couple of examples I found after a couple of minutes.

http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVjcrY0RTi0EA7jsXFwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTByMG04Z2o2BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--/RV=2/RE=1397019563/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.avionicslist.com%2farticles%2fhow_transponders_work.php/RK=0/RS=2tjWIIrdbzp36aXNVHDNF.fGKNI-

http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVjcrY0RTi0EA8TsXFwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTBybnV2cXQwBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMgRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--/RV=2/RE=1397019563/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fen.wikipedia.org%2fwiki%2fTransponder_%28aviation%29/RK=0/RS=Rft7zFJDAKuX8nCt_TYYrU3d5yQ-

Nice try to belittle the importance of a transponder.

Lets get back to WHY the transponder was turned OFF in the first place!

WWWTT

I'm not belittling anything. Transponders are very important but what they do is limited to a couple of specific functions. Nothing I or On Guard for Thee have said is inconsistent with the links you posted. As On Guard for Thee has pointed out numerous times, we don't know that it was turned off, we just know it stopped working.

[Wilber]

Ya I guess it would be cruel to those who believe the plane was destroyed and all on board are dead.

WWWTT

Crueler than just having them disappear completely with no closure at all? Crueler than the probability the aircraft is down there but not being able to confirm it? I don't think so.

[Rue]

As for the pings the chance of finding in the sea that deap the black box is less than 1% and it probably ied out by now. The assumption the black box survived intact then could rest at a deep bottom of the ocean and keep working without being compromised by the pressure of the ocean, temperature, duration of battery, etc. is huge.

One poster asked if pings could be mammals such as dolphins. Its actuall a great question. Sonic signals from whales or dolphins/porpoises can be picked up by ship radar but the chance of it being mistaken for a ship radar, or ship or black box is highly unlikley. Different frequency. I defer to the experts if there are any but my basic knowledge of the brain of these mammals is their signal is easily detectable and is different and is often compromised by ship radar and can actually kill them or drive them insane but black box pings not the same.

I was listening to the press conference by the australians last night and an interview with the cmdr on the u.s. ship and they have both said that the pings could possibly come from the black boxes. They gave no indication that these boxes would not have survived in these deep waters and hearing two difference frequencies gave them more hope that the pings were coming from the two boxes. The frequencies that were chosen for these black boxes were chosen precisely to not interfere with frequencies of other means.

Hi Wes. Yes I notice you quoted what I said. I did see the same thing on the news. What we do know is the battery life is one month and they are right at that one month period. You are dead on that the pings of black boxes are designed to be unique from other black box signals yes. Whether they are though actual black box signals however remains to be proven. I know they said the Australian ship detected something and is trying to move in on it again.

I guess we wait Wes-0don't get me wrong I would love it to be the black box but I just know how slim it is trying to find it before the battery goes out if it is in fact the black box. I do not mean to be a pessimist, just realistic.

[WWWTT]

I think you may have an exaggerated idea of what a transponder does. It doesn't identify the aircraft to anyone but the air traffic controllers who are controlling it.

Then how does this fit into your explanation?

http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVvrqZkRTJBgACBIXFwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTBya3R2ZmV1BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNARjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--/RV=2/RE=1397020522/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.faasafety.gov%2ffiles%2fgslac%2flibrary%2fdocuments%2f2011%2fJan%2f49877%2fADIZ%2520TFR%2520Intercepts%2520w%2520answers.pdf/RK=0/RS=NE4P1mDb7MW41KNdGYQB73LTJZM-

Here's some pasted out of the link:

While approaching and crossing the North American ADIZ, aircraft must have an operational radar transponder and maintain two-way radio contact. (see 14 CFR 99.9 & 99.13)

And here's the zinger:

Any aircraft flying in these zones without authorization may be identified as a threat and treated as an enemy aircraft, potentially leading to interception by fighter aircraft.

And if that wasn't enough:

b. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft into, within, or across an ADIZ unless that aircraft is equipped with a coded radar beacon transponder and automatic pressure altitude reporting equipment having altitude reporting capability that automatically replies to interrogations by transmitting pressure altitude information in 100-foot increments. (14 CFR 99.13©)

However I'm not sure if this is the info that must be sent via the transponder, but I will assume it is:

Forward the following information: 1. Aircraft call sign. 2. Number and type of aircraft. 3. Altitude (within ADIZ). 4. True airspeed. 5. Time of departure. 6. Point of departure. 7. Destination. 8. ETA. 9. Remarks: DVFR discrete transponder code; estimated point of penetration of ADIZ (latitude/longitude or fix-radial-distance); estimated time of penetration of ADIZ.

Now obviously, this commercial craft was not any where near approaching NORAD controlled space, but it was travelling through the air space of 3 different sovereign nations. And special note that China has had issues in the recent past with expanding it's air defence perimeter (or something like that).

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Crueler than just having them disappear completely with no closure at all? Crueler than the probability the aircraft is down there but not being able to confirm it? I don't think so.

Ya actually I think that would be for the families/friends to decide!

We'll just agree to disagree for the time being and see what unfolds.

WWWTT

Edited April 9, 2014 by WWWTT

[Wilber]

Then how does this fit into your explanation?

http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVvrqZkRTJBgACBIXFwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTBya3R2ZmV1BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNARjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--/RV=2/RE=1397020522/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.faasafety.gov%2ffiles%2fgslac%2flibrary%2fdocuments%2f2011%2fJan%2f49877%2fADIZ%2520TFR%2520Intercepts%2520w%2520answers.pdf/RK=0/RS=NE4P1mDb7MW41KNdGYQB73LTJZM-

Here's some pasted out of the link:

While approaching and crossing the North American ADIZ, aircraft must have an operational radar transponder and maintain two-way radio contact. (see 14 CFR 99.9 & 99.13)

And here's the zinger:

Any aircraft flying in these zones without authorization may be identified as a threat and treated as an enemy aircraft, potentially leading to interception by fighter aircraft.

And if that wasn't enough:

b. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft into, within, or across an ADIZ unless that aircraft is equipped with a coded radar beacon transponder and automatic pressure altitude reporting equipment having altitude reporting capability that automatically replies to interrogations by transmitting pressure altitude information in 100-foot increments. (14 CFR 99.13©)

However I'm not sure if this is the info that must be sent via the transponder, but I will assume it is:

Forward the following information: 1. Aircraft call sign. 2. Number and type of aircraft. 3. Altitude (within ADIZ). 4. True airspeed. 5. Time of departure. 6. Point of departure. 7. Destination. 8. ETA. 9. Remarks: DVFR discrete transponder code; estimated point of penetration of ADIZ (latitude/longitude or fix-radial-distance); estimated time of penetration of ADIZ.

Now obviously, this commercial craft was not any where near approaching NORAD controlled space, but it was travelling through the air space of 3 different sovereign nations. And special note that China has had issues in the recent past with expanding it's air defence perimeter (or something like that).

WWWTT

What of it? Does the military have SSR up there? probably but there is no ATC radar. No, the information is not sent by transponder. You are flying on a flight plan subject to a clearance by ATC. You have sent position reports to ATC. Except for the exact time of the ADIZ penetration, all that information was known the moment you took off and the estimate would certainly be updated when the aircraft crossed its oceanic entry point. Today's flight plans are so accurate that an estimate for a position six or seven hours away is usually accurate to within 5 minutes as soon as the take off time is known and so will the penetration point, unless the aircraft has been rerouted at some point during the flight. Back in the day, we had to give a DEWIZ penetration estimate on westbound flights but that was by voice to air radio, who would then pass it on to the military.. We haven't been doing that since the Cold War ended.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Wilber

[guyser]

You Pilot guys are feeding us some great info on how these things work.Pls continue and ignore the wannabee

You wannabees need to read more and post less. We are thankful for the laughs, but no one is paying more than lip service to what you think.

Wilber? Bottom of ocean or....?

Id bet the farm the plane and its people are 4k under water.

[WWWTT]

You Pilot guys are feeding us some great info on how these things work.Pls continue and ignore the wannabee

You wannabees need to read more and post less. We are thankful for the laughs, but no one is paying more than lip service to what you think.

Wilber? Bottom of ocean or....?

Id bet the farm the plane and its people are 4k under water.

But nothing on safety other than "when the plane is in danger, the pilot will want to land the plane"! Can't get any more technical than that!

Until I started asking for links, these alleged "Pilot guys" were more interested in discussing "tin foil hat theories".

All I'm reading is stuff that I have already read on links that I posted.

The best arguments that these alleged pilots have are spelling errors that I make from time to time!

WWWTT

[Wilber]

You Pilot guys are feeding us some great info on how these things work.Pls continue and ignore the wannabee

You wannabees need to read more and post less. We are thankful for the laughs, but no one is paying more than lip service to what you think.

Wilber? Bottom of ocean or....?

Id bet the farm the plane and its people are 4k under water.

I'm not betting on anything, all I am interested in is answers. I can't believe so many countries would be spending so much time and money on searching this part of the ocean without good reason to believe this was the most likely outcome.

[WestCoastRunner]

But it seems that most people discussing this believe that this plane IS destroyed, despite the fact there is no evidence of this at all.

Expert analysis that has been done has determined the most plausible scenario is that the plane went into the ocean. The type of analysis they have done with such little information has never been done before and it's actually quite remarkable that they were able to determine a possible entry point. An aviation analyst, (Richard something or other from CNN) has said that this will change the way they investigate plane crashes in the future.

This to me sounds like the only evidence we have that the plane crashed. There is no evidence that it landed safely anywhere else.

[WestCoastRunner]

And sorry, I have no link for the above WWWTT, so don't even bother asking. It's all based on the talking heads on CNN (aviation analysts).

[WestCoastRunner]

I hadn't heard that one but it does fit nicely into the conspiracy theory regima. And who knows? What I don't get in the scenarios of either hijack or the nefarious actions of the crew is what was the point? Hi jackers usually demand something, else why would they bother? If it was some sort of crew suicide they didn't have to wait 7 hours. And if you are trying to get somewhere without being detected I don't think Australia would be the best place to go. The bad news I hear today is they can't seem to reconnect with those pingers, but it is toward the end of batterie life.

It certainly is mind boggling. The more information they uncover, the more questions that arise.

[WWWTT]

I'm not betting on anything, all I am interested in is answers. I can't believe so many countries would be spending so much time and money on searching this part of the ocean without good reason to believe this was the most likely outcome.

Actually, the search has moved several times and many thousands of km.

WWWTT

[WestCoastRunner]

Actually, the search has moved several times and many thousands of km.

WWWTT

Yes, it has moved several times because of the fine tuning of the analysis. That is to be expected. Like I said previously, this type of analysis has never been done before.

[WWWTT]

Expert analysis that has been done has determined the most plausible scenario is that the plane went into the ocean. The type of analysis they have done with such little information has never been done before and it's actually quite remarkable that they were able to determine a possible entry point. An aviation analyst, (Richard something or other from CNN) has said that this will change the way they investigate plane crashes in the future.

This to me sounds like the only evidence we have that the plane crashed. There is no evidence that it landed safely anywhere else.

Yes from what I have seen I have to agree with you.

However, in my opinion, it would be easier to successfully hide a plane than a destroyed plane just laying out there some where (probably broken up, but some of it should still be intact) never being found.

And together with the facts of what happened seem to be very difficult to imagine happening.

How/why did this plane turn off course, lose transponder signal and absolutely no communication, fly over known tracked air space without being detected, then continue flying from any where from 5 to 7 hours?????

What gets me is that there is no explanation or theory other than a fire that can somehow disable the entire crew, and then the plane continues flying till it runs out of gas. And that still doesn't explain the plane backtracking over scanned air space without being detected!

This explanation troubles me because it shows that authorities don't seem to understand what happened, not re assuring!

Can only wait and see what happens I guess

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Yes, it has moved several times because of the fine tuning of the analysis. That is to be expected. Like I said previously, this type of analysis has never been done before.

Ya I don't think there's anything that could have been expected here in this case. I don't recall hearing about a search moving around like that before.

It's too bad bush_cheney isn't contributing to this thread anymore because he had some good links!

WWWTT

[Wilber]

Ya actually I think that would be for the families/friends to decide!

We'll just agree to disagree for the time being and see what unfolds.

WWWTT

Not knowing could be causing a lot of financial hardship to some of these families. Do estates get settled or not? For those passengers who have bank accounts or vehicles etc in their name only, what do their families do if they have no powers of attorney? Are those powers even still valid? Do life insurance policies pay out? Life will be quite complicated for many of them. Edited April 9, 2014 by Wilber

[Rue]

The law differs in each state or province or nation as to how many months or years must pass until someone is presumed dead but in this case I do not think legally that will be a problem if people have life insurance policies or have left debts behind. Creditors, and beneficiaries do have ways to establish a presumption of death in such unusual circumstances and if nothing else plea directly to the Judge in court to make the assumption and they will. Courts show compassion in such instances. They are more reserved under situations where one person disappears not an entire plane or ship.

Given the lack of information and pronouncements from the Malaysian government, that should be sufficient for a presumption of death.i think the Malaysian government in fact announced what it did precisely to create the basis for which Judges can now assume death from the plane crash. As a general rule once the sovereign government in charge of the airline declares a plane crash its sufficient for a Judge to rely on to presume death.

That said, Malaysian airlines faces direct civil liability. What the actual amount defined will be to each family of the dead will be difficult to guess at this point I doubt the airline liability policy coverage is sufficient to pay out the total amount of the eventual wrongful death claims and so it is quite conceivable it could cause Malaysian airlines to declare bankruptcy which could then cause many legal hardships and complications as Wilbur says.

I am sure lawyers are preparing claims as we speak.An airline has strict liability which means it has no defence in such cases. The only question is how much it pays the surviving families not whether it pays them.

There is precedent for pay out from earlier incidents such as the Libya terror bombing of the plane over Scotland, the downing of the Indian airline out of Canada, the TWA and Korean Airline incidents, and of course the 7-11 incidents, but of course the amount you can sue for always keeps going up due to inflation, and other factors of increased living expenses.

Given the pings now appear to be inconclusive as I feared I really doubt the answer is ever going to come and within 2 weeks all searches will be ended. The battery life is over on any black box.

It could be years from now by accident someone finds it like the Titanic.However until then it will remain a mystery and fodder for conspiracy stories.

I am surprised no one has blamed Israel. The US was quickly blamed but no Israel.I am worried that some posters on this forum are slipping. Also not one alien conspiracy story. By now I expected one UFO abduction story.

I have read some that the US blowed up the plane because of secret info being sent to China about the US on the plane.

The one I love is that the US took the plane to Diego Garcia according to my good friend Jesse Ventura.

I believe myself it was an unsuccessful hijacking to Somalia and the plane ran out of gas and crashed. I believe people passed out as the plane was placed in high altitude to asphyxiate people to silence them and then was put on automatic pilot and they underestimated the amount of petrol needed and I think the pilot also underestimated recovering himself from the high altitude to be able to fly the plane again.

But hey what do I know. I am a Zionist apologist. I love Jesse Ventura but on this one he is a way off. He smokes too much weed.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Rue

[WWWTT]

Not knowing could be causing a lot of financial hardship to some of these families. Do estates get settled or not? For those passengers who have bank accounts or vehicles etc in their name only, what do their families do if they have no powers of attorney? Are those powers even still valid? Do life insurance policies pay out? Life will be quite complicated for many of them.

I think Rue's comment is a good starting point here!

Air Malaysia is going to be on the hook for a lot!

I wouldn't be surprised if the lawsuit and payout breaks a world record from this incident.

I would hope that Air Malaysia right now would be footing the bill for the expenses incurred by family members staying in hotels, meals, and flights back and forth. But I don't know?

We're past 1 month now, so I guess it would be safe to assume that there will be no wreckage turning up. But again, I'm just guessing because it seems that any new lead that turns up as time passes has a thinner chance of materializing.

I still hope that all on board are safe and healthy!!!!!

WWWTT

Edited April 9, 2014 by WWWTT

[Big Guy]

As to liability and insurance payments, I wonder how much time would be required to declare all those on board to have perished without any physical evidence. I believe that it takes about 8 years for a missing person to be declared legally dead so would the same parameters apply to this case? Once it is established that the person(s) is dead then the cause has to be established as to liability. The liability would be very different in case of a bomb or pilot error or pilot suicide or mechanical failure or design flaw or misdirection by air controllers or ...

There will be plenty of finger pointing. This tragedy will be in the news for many years.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Big Guy

[GostHacked]

As to liability and insurance payments, I wonder how much time would be required to declare all those on board to have perished without any physical evidence. I believe that it takes about 8 years for a missing person to be declared legally dead so would the same parameters apply to this case?

The time frame would depend on the country you live in. Here in Canada or the USA it may be 8 years, who knows what it is for Malaysia.

[WWWTT]

As to liability and insurance payments, I wonder how much time would be required to declare all those on board to have perished without any physical evidence. I believe that it takes about 8 years for a missing person to be declared legally dead so would the same parameters apply to this case? Once it is established that the person(s) is dead then the cause has to be established as to liability. The liability would be very different in case of a bomb or pilot error or pilot suicide or mechanical failure or design flaw or misdirection by air controllers or ...

There will be plenty of finger pointing. This tragedy will be in the news for many years.

Good points here!

Since it was a Boeing plane, I would imagine it will be impossible for them to stay out of any kind of court action.

WWWTT