BC Teachers Getting Screwed...Again

[Bob Macadoo]

With all due respect, I get the feeling that you guys are relatively young or at least your wife is somewhat new to this, but the union is on their own path. The teachers will figure this out soon enough, i hope.

A union is not on their own path....they represent the collective betterment of their members. If that means ensuring enough new entries are made to support those in retirement or a general toss of the Liberals to ease next contract negotiations so be it. Those items are not in conflict with the requirements of the membership even if you may disagree with methodology.

On another note, one should regard ON on teacher relations on what can happen and what can be salvaged after scorched earth.

[Hal 9000]

Oh, I get it now. You one of these literal guys who doesn't understand human nature, deals, unwritten rules or friendships.

You don't understand that someone who has been friends with other teachers will get the calls. Who do you think is first on every list? a teacher who has 25+ years experience, who goes to the bar and has sushi every friday, who you go fishing with on the weekends, who you've holiday'd with in Mexico/Cuba...wherever or.... some 25 YO girl.

[Hal 9000]

A union is not on their own path....they represent the collective betterment of their members. If that means ensuring enough new entries are made to support those in retirement or a general toss of the Liberals to ease next contract negotiations so be it. Those items are not in conflict with the requirements of the membership even if you may disagree with methodology.

On another note, one should regard ON on teacher relations on what can happen and what can be salvaged after scorched earth.

The deal on the table is a good deal for the members, it's not a good enough deal for the BCTF.

[sharkman]

With all due respect, I get the feeling that you guys are relatively young or at least your wife is somewhat new to this, but the union is on their own path. The teachers will figure this out soon enough, i hope. The Gov't has agreed to the raises, signing bonuses and the perks/concessions and agreed to 75$mil in new teachers. The Union says it wants 100$m. If the teachers are willing to go the scorched earth route for $25M that will do diddly nothing for them personally, they're just as naive as we all suspected.

No, this is a Union that wants 2 things; new members and to crush the Liberals. They're willing to throw the teachers and our kids under the bus to get it too.

P.S - In looking over the proposal, I could easily shave off half that $25m in useless expenditures myself. Sooner or later the teachers will realize the diminishing returns of their requests and hopefully ask their union to take the deal.

I'm not sure why you say the government has agreed to raises, signing bonuses and perks, etc. Are you referring to their offer? The two parties aren't that far apart in those items, but the government refuses to consider their illegal act in 2002. They refuse to go to binding arbitration which would get this thing done in a week. They refused to do anything with the BCTF's opening offer during the Vince Ready thing. They know that they have a weak position and that is why they do nothing but bluster.

On Friday I heard the education minister make a big deal out of the fact that the BCTF's offer for binding arbitration(done at a press conference instead of behind closed doors, he huffed) was not written down on paper. So of course that was one reason why he refused to consider it, they weren't serious, he said. When the government is still playing games like this while at the same time finding money to pay parents for day care (while saying there's none to return to 2002 classroom sizes), well then you know they are only posturing. They're simply going to let the province twist in the wind for a month while play acting at this whole process.

Edited September 7, 2014 by sharkman

[Bob Macadoo]

Oh, I get it now. You one of these literal guys who doesn't understand human nature, deals, unwritten rules or friendships.

You don't understand that someone who has been friends with other teachers will get the calls. Who do you think is first on every list? a teacher who has 25+ years experience, who goes to the bar and has sushi every friday, who you go fishing with on the weekends, who you've holiday'd with in Mexico/Cuba...wherever or.... some 25 YO girl.

Again.....maybe you don't listen......it's easy to stop......you don't even have to table a bill as hiring criteria are a regulation already. My rum buddy can be barred with the stroke of a pen, yet is not. Maybe they are the legislator's rum buddy too.

[Bob Macadoo]

The deal on the table is a good deal for the members, it's not a good enough deal for the BCTF.

Might be good for members today/this quarter but like gov'ts are supposed to do it might impact future sustainability.

[Hal 9000]

I'm not sure why you say the government has agreed to raises, signing bonuses and perks, etc. Are you referring to their offer? The two parties aren't that far apart in those items, but the government refuses to consider their illegal act in 2002. They refuse to go to binding arbitration which would get this thing done in a week. They refused to do anything with the BCTF's opening offer during the Vince Ready thing. They know that they have a weak position and that is why they do nothing but bluster.

On Friday I heard the education minister make a big deal out of the fact that the BCTF's offer for binding arbitration(done at a press conference instead of behind closed doors, he huffed) was not written down on paper. So of course that was one reason why he refused to consider it, they weren't serious, he said. When the government is still playing games like this while at the same time finding money to pay parents for day care(while saying there's none to return to 2002 classroom sizes, well then you know they are only posturing. They're simply going to let the province twist in the wind for a month while play acting at this whole process.

Grade 3 and under is set at 20 students, and I believe the rest are set at 25 - is that so bad? We all survived classes of 30 or more when I went to school. What were the sizes in 2002?

Besides, what do you thing 25$m is gonna do for class sizes throughout BC? Any meaningful class reductions are gonna cost 320-400$m per year.

[Hal 9000]

Again.....maybe you don't listen......it's easy to stop......you don't even have to table a bill as hiring criteria are a regulation already. My rum buddy can be barred with the stroke of a pen, yet is not. Maybe they are the legislator's rum buddy too.

Do you honestly think the teachers will sign a contract that requires them to retire and stay retired? The doesn't even pass the giggle test!

[Bob Macadoo]

Do you honestly think the teachers will sign a contract that requires them to retire and stay retired? The doesn't even pass the giggle test!

Is this on purpose or a mistake? The contract <> retirement employment. It is not currently a term nor would become a term unless the gov't agreed. So I ask again.....why not write your MLA and suggest this regulation change.

[Wilber]

Well this is pretty much nonsense, 95%? Get real, there are many factors involved. I could make up numbers too but I don't.

And so what? It's their pension. They've paid into it for 30-40 years and it's their money, invested so they can draw on it. Yes it's to their advantage. Yes it's voluntary. So what? If you are so against the union teacher situation, why are you taking money from it every month? Your wife makes what, 70 grand a year? It's hypocritical to accept this money, tell her to quit her job and go teach in a private school if you're so against it.

Is it all their own money or is part of it being covered by the tax payer?

[sharkman]

Grade 3 and under is set at 20 students, and I believe the rest are set at 25 - is that so bad? We all survived classes of 30 or more when I went to school. What were the sizes in 2002?

Besides, what do you thing 25$m is gonna do for class sizes throughout BC? Any meaningful class reductions are gonna cost 320-400$m per year.

What you believe is wrong. In 2002, the non-science academic class limit was 30 for high school, where my wife teaches. That was ripped up, and right now there is no hard limit, but the average of all can't be above 30. So that means there could be 35+ as long as the average is pulled down by a class of 20. 30 was a lot, but 35 with special need and ESL kids? It means each kid gets less time with the teacher when they have problems or are stumped about something. Too many kids getting no time, getting lost in the shuffle because they can't speak up. it's not a pretty picture.

[sharkman]

Is it all their own money or is part of it being covered by the tax payer?

The money put in by the teacher is matched, Hal or someone above says the teacher pays a little less than half. That's in the ballpark. Personally I'd say they shouldn't be allowed to teach after retirement, but like I mentioned, it's not very common. Most are pretty done by the time they're looking at retirement.

Edited September 8, 2014 by sharkman

[Hal 9000]

What you believe is wrong. In 2002, the non-science academic class limit was 30 for high school, where my wife teaches. That was ripped up, and right now there is no hard limit, but the average of all can't be above 30. So that means there could be 35+ as long as the average is pulled down by a class of 20. 30 was a lot, but 35 with special need and ESL kids? It means each kid gets less time with the teacher when they have problems or are stumped about something. Too many kids getting no time, getting lost in the shuffle because they can't speak up. it's not a pretty picture.

2002;

Kindergarten: Cap of 20 students

Grades 1 to 3: 22 students

Grades 4 to 7: 28 students

Grades 8 to 12: 28 students

B.C. 2013-2014 class-size averages

Kindergarten: 19.3 students

(Current government cap of 22 students)

Grades 1 to 3: 21.5 students (Cap of 24 students)

Grades 4 to 7: 25.7 students (Cap of 30 students)*

Grades 8 to 12: 23.0 students (Cap of 30 students)*

*Can be exceeded in cases where large classes are beneficial, including band, drama and physical education.

P.S If your wife has those numbers, maybe it's a problem for you school board office of you boundaries.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Hal 9000

[Wilber]

The money put in by the teacher is matched, Hal or someone above says the teacher pays a little less than half. That's in the ballpark. Personally I'd say they shouldn't be allowed to teach after retirement, but like I mentioned, it's not very common. Most are pretty done by the time they're looking at retirement.

I can appreciate that the money is matched during employment. What happens when the teacher stops contributing and starts collecting?

[Bob Macadoo]

I can appreciate that the money is matched during employment. What happens when the teacher stops contributing and starts collecting?

What is so hard for people to believe that when you retire you are no longer a "union goon" and delineated from the benefits afforded full members? Do you really believe these people get gov't kickbacks for no contribution on their part? Maybe you think pensions are some sort of endless welfare that is graced on unionists alone.

Its no wonder unions are seen in the light they are if you can suppose they eat babies.....as logic cannot apply to union life ever. They are somehow the illuminati beyond the reach of mortal men.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Bob Macadoo

[Wilber]

What is so hard for people to believe that when you retire you are no longer a "union goon" and delineated from the benefits afforded full members? Do you really believe these people get gov't kickbacks for no contribution on their part? Maybe you think pensions are some sort of endless welfare that is graced on unionists alone.

Its no wonder unions are seen in the light they are if you can suppose they eat babies.....as logic cannot apply to union life ever. They are somehow the illuminati beyond the reach of mortal men.

Bob, as a recipient of a privately funded pension I am very familiar with the funding issues confronting them in an era of record low interest rates. My intention is not to dump on teachers but to find out how their pension is funded.

What got my attention was the statement that they qualify for a full pension at 55. How does that work? What is "full pension". A person starting at age 30 is going to contribute a lot more than one starting at age 35, yet both may live well into their eighties or beyond Do they both qualify for the same pension or is it based on age plus years of service? Most private plans allow for early retirement but are based on years of service and there is a penalty for each year with no contributions before normal retirement age. That is what I want to know.

[Big Guy]

The following may give you some insight into the situation in Ontario;

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.osstfd10.ca%2FPublications%2FMember%2520Education%2520Series%2FIssue%25203.pdf&ei=fP8MVJTPKpPZoATzkIGAAg&usg=AFQjCNEViAlDuFIi5sWj6GmiP3BnK-jd3A&bvm=bv.74649129,d.aWw

[sharkman]

I can appreciate that the money is matched during employment. What happens when the teacher stops contributing and starts collecting?

There is no further money contributed at that point, I believe. It's an annuity at that point and one gets a cheque every month, it's a large enough amount that the interest covers the payment or cheque each month. That's the info I have anyway.

I should say though, that I am getting beyond my depth on this and can't really find any definitive info on the matter.

Edited September 8, 2014 by sharkman

[sharkman]

2002;

Kindergarten: Cap of 20 students

Grades 1 to 3: 22 students

Grades 4 to 7: 28 students

Grades 8 to 12: 28 students

B.C. 2013-2014 class-size averages

Kindergarten: 19.3 students

(Current government cap of 22 students)

Grades 1 to 3: 21.5 students (Cap of 24 students)

Grades 4 to 7: 25.7 students (Cap of 30 students)*

Grades 8 to 12: 23.0 students (Cap of 30 students)*

*Can be exceeded in cases where large classes are beneficial, including band, drama and physical education.

P.S If your wife has those numbers, maybe it's a problem for you school board office of you boundaries.

Those numbers aren't explained and I'm wondering where you got them and what they mean. For instance, grades 8 to 12, 23.0 students. Just what does that mean? That the class average PROVINCE WIDE is 23? And the cap, what is the definition of the associated cap?

Because in a major lower mainland school district in 2012, my wife knows of a colleague who had an academic class of 32. This wasn't band, drama or Phys Ed.

Edited September 8, 2014 by sharkman

[Wilber]

The following may give

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.osstfd10.ca%2FPublications%2FMember%20Education%20Series%2FIssue%203.pdf&ei=fP8MVJTPKpPZoATzkIGAAg&usg=AFQjCNEViAlDuFIi5sWj6GmiP3BnK-jd3A&bvm=bv.74649129,d.aWw

OK, that is similar to most private plans except for one huge difference. Indexing.

[Wilber]

OK, that is similar to most private plans except for one huge difference. Indexing.

On second reading I see indexing is dependent on the financial health of the plan.

My issue was that the government might end up paying pension benefits and salary at the time.

[Bob Macadoo]

On second reading I see indexing is dependent on the financial health of the plan.

My issue was that the government might end up paying pension benefits and salary at the time.

Why would you think that? Does that happen in your "private" plan? Again why do people think its bizzaro world in the realm of union benefit?

[Hal 9000]

Why would you think that? Does that happen in your "private" plan? Again why do people think its bizzaro world in the realm of union benefit?

So, the gov't doesn't pay anything towards the teachers pensions?

[Bob Macadoo]

So, the gov't doesn't pay anything towards the teachers pensions?

Does GM? Does Air Canada?

The question: Do employers contribute their contracted share into a pension plan after the employee has retired?

The answer: whaddayou think?

[Wilber]

Why would you think that? Does that happen in your "private" plan? Again why do people think its bizzaro world in the realm of union benefit?

It has nothing to do with unions. With private DB plans, the company only has to make up for shortfalls, they don't normally make regular contributions so end up having to subsidize the benefits when markets are bad and rates low. I wanted to know if the teachers plan was the same or somehow different.

Couple of years ago many were condemming DB plans as unsustainable but market performance has returned many that were less than 80% funded to fully funded in the past year.

Why are you so bloody hostile?

Edited September 8, 2014 by Wilber