BC Teachers Getting Screwed...Again

[Pct2017]

i have no interest in discussing things with someone who argues against fabrications. I never said this at all. And the fact that you resort to insults tells me all I need to know about your interest in an honest discussion.

I'll take that as a big old negatory on the stats course.

But, I would be most pleased to hear your opinion on why public opinion is so important to people like you and Socialist. Are you expecting a referendum or a snap election over the whiny teachers contract?

[socialist]

I'll take that as a big old negatory on the stats course.

But, I would be most pleased to hear your opinion on why public opinion is so important to people like you and Socialist. Are you expecting a referendum or a snap election over the whiny teachers contract?

Because we live in a democracy and the government works for the people. If a majority are for the teachers, then the gov't should be forced to give teachers A FAIR DEAL. That is all they are asking for. A FAIR DEAL

[TimG]

Because we live in a democracy and the government works for the people. If a majority are for the teachers, then the gov't should be forced to give teachers A FAIR DEAL. That is all they are asking for. A FAIR DEAL

This kind of rhetoric is just silly. You can demand anything and slap an "IT ONLY FAIR" label on it. It is well established that people come to believe they deserve whatever they have and any attempt to reduce what they have is deemed unfair whether they are making $5/hour or $5 thousand/hour.

What matters hear is not "WHAT IS FAIR" - but what the public is willing to pay and the public has indicated over and over again that it does not want to pay for what the teachers demand with higher taxes. Given that reality the teachers will eventually be forced to accept a package which they believe if not "FAIR". The only question is how many kids will get screwed while the teachers have a temper tantrum.

Edited May 30, 2014 by TimG

[Hydraboss]

What do election predictions have to do with an opinion poll of this nature? They're fundamentally different in the sense that election polling often results in a very large number of "undecided" respondents. Moreover, the election campaign matters. People opinions change as the election moves on. A poll conduct Monday through Thursday doesn't capture the controversy that happens on the Friday and the subsequent slip or boost in the polls.

What we're talking about here is an opinion poll asking people how they feel about a particular situation that has been in the news. There isn't going to be a large group of people who think it's taboo to discuss who they're going to vote for before an election. If you look at the Angus Reid poll that I posted, you can see their numbers and how many people they polled. You can unpack their methodology.

There is a criticizable issue with it, but I'll leave it up to you to find the problem and explain how it might have affected this poll. When you find it and are able to elaborate on it, I'll tell you why it might not be a problem at all. Then we can pretend we're having a real discussion, where we're both bringing something of substance to the table.

Thank you. You reposted the exact same Angus poll that I did which clearly shows that only 41% of people polled support the teachers. 30% don't. The balance don't appear to care.

What this means is that a "MINORITY" of people polled support the teachers. 41% out of a possible 100% is a minority. That means that 52% either don't or don't care (I know that only adds up to 93% - ???). But thank you for all your effort to support their methodology.

(and not that it matters, but one of my professional responsiblities is overseeing the department that handles statistical analysis for a VERY large multinational corporation - almost 50 countries. So I DO know how to manage these kinds of stats...)

[socialist]

An update from the CBC . The audacity of the government to cut 10% as they forcibly lock teachers out. This government has NO CLUE.

Striking B.C. teachers fight lockout pay cut at LRB

Government argues it has the right to cut teachers' pay 10% during partial lockout

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/striking-b-c-teachers-fight-lockout-pay-cut-at-lrb-1.2658496

[Pct2017]

From the CBC article cited above regarding the 10% paycut:

"The B.C. Teachers' Federation calls the pay cut a punitive action that is only escalating the dispute, but the government insists it's just applying pressure to reach a deal."

So, let's see. The BCTF calls a strike vote in March, before it has even tabled it's initial offer.

The BCTF triggers phase one of it's job action shortly after taking two weeks off from negotiations because, well really, who could possibly expect teachers to show up for negotiations during Spring Break.

The BCTF decides to proceed to phase two (rotating strikes), but fully expects the government to do nothing in exchange.

As I have stated previously, trying to negotiate with the BCTF must be considered one of the the 10 most frustrating jobs on the face of the Earth. If you don't give us exactly what we demand, then you are a bully. If we initiate job action and you reciprocate, then it is you who is escalating the dispute. If you put an offer on the table that has been accepted by 100% of all other public sector unions then you are not being fair.

I think that Fassbender and Cameron deserve to be sainted when all of this is over.

[WestCoastRunner]

but what the public is willing to pay and the public has indicated over and over again that it does not want to pay for what the teachers demand with higher taxes. Given that reality the teachers will eventually be forced to accept a package which they believe if not "FAIR".

Do you really have anything to back this up Tim? I have not seen anything to indicate that the public has indicated over and over again that they do not want to pay for the teachers demands.

[TimG]

Do you really have anything to back this up Tim? I have not seen anything to indicate that the public has indicated over and over again that they do not want to pay for the teachers demands.

Well the most obvious indication is the rejection of the HST. Another indication is the fact that all major BC political parties reject personal tax increases (people who only want to increase taxes that they do not personally pay are rejecting tax increases).

Since tax increases are off the table then any money for teachers must be found by cutting other government services like healthcare, legal aid, children's aid, et. al. I see no indication that people want to see any of these services cut to give the teachers raises that far exceed what the rest of the public service has already accepted.

Edited May 31, 2014 by TimG

[socialist]

From the CBC article cited above regarding the 10% paycut:

"The B.C. Teachers' Federation calls the pay cut a punitive action that is only escalating the dispute, but the government insists it's just applying pressure to reach a deal."

So, let's see. The BCTF calls a strike vote in March, before it has even tabled it's initial offer.

The BCTF triggers phase one of it's job action shortly after taking two weeks off from negotiations because, well really, who could possibly expect teachers to show up for negotiations during Spring Break.

The BCTF decides to proceed to phase two (rotating strikes), but fully expects the government to do nothing in exchange.

As I have stated previously, trying to negotiate with the BCTF must be considered one of the the 10 most frustrating jobs on the face of the Earth. If you don't give us exactly what we demand, then you are a bully. If we initiate job action and you reciprocate, then it is you who is escalating the dispute. If you put an offer on the table that has been accepted by 100% of all other public sector unions then you are not being fair.

I think that Fassbender and Cameron deserve to be sainted when all of this is over.

Fassbeder and Cameron will go down as destroyers of public education. However, the public will not put up with it as the BCTF is gaining new supporters every day, especially after they understand how the courts sided in favor of the BCTF.

[Pct2017]

Do you really have anything to back this up Tim? I have not seen anything to indicate that the public has indicated over and over again that they do not want to pay for the teachers demands.

This is somewhat antidotical in nature, but during the provincial election last spring here in BC, it appeared that the NDP were about to win a landslide victory. So in March, outgoing BCTF president Susan Lambert rallied the troops at the annual convention with a speech that included the following:

“Our job now is to challenge the NDP, possibly our next provincial government, to commit to increase spending on public education — even if that means increasing taxes,” she said, to resounding applause.

That go a lot of play out here in the weeks leading up to the May election. I am in no way saying that this was why the NDP eventually got decimated in the election, but I doubt that Adrian Dix sent Lambert a thank you note.

[Pct2017]

And by the way, just to show you how selfless and earnest our dear teachers and their beloved union are regarding getting a deal done and not impacting the children:

"Both the teachers and the government are saying they want a deal by the end of the school year — but what comes next if that doesn’t happen remains unclear.

The teachers union says they will not decide until later this month if they will continue to negotiate in July and August if an agreement is not made by the end of June.

The Premier said yesterday that *if* a deal is not done by the end of June she hopes the union will keep working at the bargaining table in the summer months."

Really? There is some doubt that the teachers should be negotiating through the summer? They have to think about this?

Yes, it is all about the kids. But do not ask me to give up some of my bloated holiday time.

[cybercoma]

Well the most obvious indication is the rejection of the HST.

You're extrapolating from the rejection of harmonized sales tax in contradiction of the Angus Reid poll that asked folks directly about support for the teachers. Sorry if your six degrees of separation assumption about people's wishes doesn't persuade me as much as a poll that asked people directly about their wishes.

[socialist]

And by the way, just to show you how selfless and earnest our dear teachers and their beloved union are regarding getting a deal done and not impacting the children:

"Both the teachers and the government are saying they want a deal by the end of the school year — but what comes next if that doesn’t happen remains unclear.

The teachers union says they will not decide until later this month if they will continue to negotiate in July and August if an agreement is not made by the end of June.

The Premier said yesterday that *if* a deal is not done by the end of June she hopes the union will keep working at the bargaining table in the summer months."

Really? There is some doubt that the teachers should be negotiating through the summer? They have to think about this?

Yes, it is all about the kids. But do not ask me to give up some of my bloated holiday time.

Why should teachers picket when they are technically unemployed? They don't get paid for summer. Think before you post.

[TimG]

You're extrapolating from the rejection of harmonized sales tax in contradiction of the Angus Reid poll that asked folks directly about support for the teachers.

The question did NOT ask "Do you support tax increases in order to meet the teachers demands?". The poll question was only "Overall, which side are you most inclined to support in this dispute between the teachers and the BC government?".

It is ridiculous infer that this support would remain if people were told that tax increases are the likely consequence of the teachers demands given past events make it clear that the public does not want tax increases.

Edited May 31, 2014 by TimG

[cybercoma]

Are you suggesting people are too stupid to know that teachers' pay and benefits come from tax dollars? And the fact is taxes don't have to be increased. They can move around spending.

Edited May 31, 2014 by cybercoma

[TimG]

Are you suggesting people are too stupid to know that teachers' pay and benefits come from tax dollars? And the fact is taxes don't have to be increased. They can move around spending.

I think people answer poll questions without thinking to much about them. That is why I think poll questions which do not explicitly explore the consequences of supporting various causes are largely meaningless. i.e. if a cause requires that the government spend money a relevant poll must follow that question up with "would you support this cause if your personal taxes went up by $X/year?".

As for the demands: what exactly do you think should be cut to recover the $2 billion required to meet the class size demands? Healthcare? Child protection services? Legal aid? Are you really falling into the "we will just save money by finding efficiencies" nonsense? If the BC wanted to find $2 billion pay for the teachers demands it will have to come from deep cuts to other programs, tax increases or deficit spending.

Edited May 31, 2014 by TimG

[cybercoma]

So people are stupid and you're smarter than them. Got it.

[Pct2017]

Why should teachers picket when they are technically unemployed? They don't get paid for summer. Think before you post.

The article said nothing about picketing,but apparently what you are saying is that if the BCTF cannot walk a picket line then they are not capable of negotiating? Thank you for educating me regarding how much they care about the students.

[Pct2017]

Are you suggesting people are too stupid to know that teachers' pay and benefits come from tax dollars? And the fact is taxes don't have to be increased. They can move around spending.

Can you give us a list of where you would take revenues from? Please try to remember that stadium roofs and Olympic fixtures are one time expenses, not annual ongoing expenses like the teachers demands. When you answer, you have to rob other ongoing budgets such as healthcare or social services.

So which ministry are you proposing gets its budget slashed?

[TimG]

So people are stupid and you're smarter than them. Got it.

No. I just believe that polls tell the answer to the questions asked.

They do not tell us anything about the answers to questions that were not asked.

I also noticed you went silent on your assertion that $2 billion can be found by "moving around spending".

Edited May 31, 2014 by TimG

[WestCoastRunner]

The teachers union says they will not decide until later this month if they will continue to negotiate in July and August if an agreement is not made by the end of June.

The Premier said yesterday that *if* a deal is not done by the end of June she hopes the union will keep working at the bargaining table in the summer months."

I suspect the union's tactic of not willing to negotiate over the summer has more to do with pressuring the govt to negotiate in June and resolve the issues.

[socialist]

I suspect the union's tactic of not willing to negotiate over the summer has more to do with pressuring the govt to negotiate in June and resolve the issues.

Yes. The government will want to drag this on but it will backfire. It's been also said that the government will allow 3 weeks of strikes to occur to save enough money to pay for a pay raise for teachers. Sneaky tactic don't fool the BCTF.

[Pct2017]

I suspect the union's tactic of not willing to negotiate over the summer has more to do with pressuring the govt to negotiate in June and resolve the issues.

And that is a fair assumption. The problem with your suggestion is that the BCTF booked off negotiations over the two week spring break earlier this spring, citing how difficult it would be to contact members.

Time will tell, but recent history is not on the side of the whiny teachers. If they do cancel all negotiations for the summer, would that impact your opinion on how determined the union is to get a deal done with minimizing the impact on students?

[overthere]

Perhaps the government should spend the two summer months hiring replacement workers.

That would save a lot of money, and minimize the impact on students.

Win-win.

[socialist]

BC students have organized a walkout to protest the teacher lockout. From what I am hearing, an overwhelming majority of these students are siding with their teachers. This is good ton see and helps restore a little bit of confidence in our ever-eroding democracy. The sign in the picture of the link I provide says it all. Kudos to BC students for seeing what is really going out with this lockout.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-teachers-strike-student-walkout-plans-prompt-warnings-1.2664097