Consensual Sex and the definition of Rape

[Argus]

You do have the right of free speech but not without repercussions. I don't think speech makes you a rapist, but speech does make a culture.

The culture you are talking about is the one governed largely by hormones and instinct. Oh, perhaps in strict religious times, when you never saw more of a female than her neck and face the boys didn't talk about the girls body parts and what they'd like to do with them -- perhaps (though I doubt it), but if you look around the world between differing cultures you don't really see a lot of difference in terms of what young men (and sometimes not so young) think about young women. And can we please assume I am not suggesting the ONLY thing men want of women is sex and the ONLY thing they think about is body parts.

And what is this 'culture of rape' anyway? Should we be more like Islamic countries, where, by the way, not only do women have no rights to speak of but they can't get on a bus or tram or walk down the street, even covered in a black robe from head to toe, without risking being surrounded by mobs of young men and groped?

Is rape more prevalent now than it was, say, thirty or forty years ago, when the same lewd conversations between men took place, conversations just as graphic and boastful and swaggering and obscene? Do we even know what the statistics say? After all, sexual assault is not rape, it could mean anything down to a slap on the butt.

[Argus]

I think you don't take into consideration a youth's want to be part of a group.

Sure. But is there a club you can belong to, or a clique that doesn't sometimes do or say things with which you disagree, don't like or are somewhat uncomfortable with? Life is learning and coping.

[Michael Hardner]

And what is this 'culture of rape' anyway?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture

[On Guard for Thee]

Holy cow this thread is scaring the absolute shit out of me. Sounds like a bunch of you boys gad no proper guidance in your lives. Maybe you never got laid. I've been walking this planet over 50 years and I've never had any doubt about what was acceptable and what was not with the ladies I've been lucky enough to encounter. If you need a friggin' road map to figure this stuff out something must have really sucked about your childhood or something. If you have some doubt about the difference between consensual sex and rape, you need counselling.

[Argus]

Holy cow this thread is scaring the absolute shit out of me. Sounds like a bunch of you boys gad no proper guidance in your lives. Maybe you never got laid. I've been walking this planet over 50 years and I've never had any doubt about what was acceptable and what was not with the ladies I've been lucky enough to encounter. If you need a friggin' road map to figure this stuff out something must have really sucked about your childhood or something. If you have some doubt about the difference between consensual sex and rape, you need counselling.

Gee, thanks old guy, for a rant which had no relationship to anything anyone has said on this topic or any other. Want to rant about bologna next? Go for it. I'm sure it'll be just as intelligently put.

[Michael Hardner]

Let's bring it back to the discussion points ....

[Argus]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture

I understand the terminology. What I don't understand is what parts of university culture they think encourage rape. As far as I'm aware incidents of rape have been getting smaller, not greater.

Universities, being filled with young people, away from home, and actively dating strangers (no one knows anyone's family or background) would logically seem to be the most likely places in the country for rape, yet I'm not hearing much about any epidemics or any great waves of fear. There are occasional incidents, and that's about it.

[ReeferMadness]

It refers to picking up the drunkest woman to increase your chances of getting laid.

It's predatory and risky to intentionally choose women too drunk to consent. I should think that's obvious.

So, I'm curious. What is too drunk to consent?

And is it obvous - what if the guy has been drinking as well? What if they're both too drunk to consent? Or if only the guy has been drinking?

[cybercoma]

In the West we're surrounded by sexuality. Why is it taboo to have an opinion on sexuality?

They make derogatory remarks about a woman, talking about assaulting her sexual (one of them wanted to "punish her with [his] shaft") and you're going to sit here and sanitize it by calling it "having an opinion on sexuality"? Come on. You're better than that. How would you like a woman in your family being talked about in that way for no other reason than she was in a higher position than these subordinates? It's completely unacceptable. But more importantly, what's frightening is the kind of culture that incubates the mentality that people need to have to make those kinds of comments about another human being. It goes back to what I'm saying about objectification. Women in our culture are considered objects, as opposed to human beings with their own thoughts and feelings.

[cybercoma]

You do have the right of free speech but not without repercussions. I don't think speech makes you a rapist, but speech does make a culture.

I don't agree with you. The language is symptomatic of the culture because the culture shapes the way we perceive the world around us. This culture fosters the perception of women as objects and you can see it everywhere from the language people use to the way things are advertised to the types of roles women have in movies and television. The way some are talking here, I wonder if they honestly think people want to ban "language." If so, they miss the point. The point is that the entire culture needs to change and that's not going to happen in the short term.

[On Guard for Thee]

Gee, thanks old guy, for a rant which had no relationship to anything anyone has said on this topic or any other. Want to rant about bologna next? Go for it. I'm sure it'll be just as intelligently put.

I guess discussing consensual sex as opposed to rape on a page that refers to....consensual sex and rape, is bologna to you. Talk about old guy!

[Michael Hardner]

I understand the terminology. What I don't understand is what parts of university culture they think encourage rape. As far as I'm aware incidents of rape have been getting smaller, not greater.

Ok, well read up on it then. If incidents are reducing in number, then that means the program of raising awareness and concern is working, no need to stop now.

[Michael Hardner]

I don't agree with you. The language is symptomatic of the culture because the culture shapes the way we perceive the world around us.

Yes, I suppose you're right as well. It's a reflection of culture, and also frames culture. Advertising is a form of communication, how we speak collectively, all of it...

[Argus]

Ok, well read up on it then. If incidents are reducing in number, then that means the program of raising awareness and concern is working, no need to stop now.

In other words, you don't have any idea what this 'rape culture' on campus is but you're willing to go along with whatever man hating propaganda is being put out.

[Argus]

But more importantly, what's frightening is the kind of culture that incubates the mentality that people need to have to make those kinds of comments about another human being.

Not sure what sort of esoteric culture you think exists where young men don't make crude sexual comments about women but I'm guessing it doesn't involve actual human beings.

It goes back to what I'm saying about objectification. Women in our culture are considered objects, as opposed to human beings with their own thoughts and feelings.

Drivel. Women in our culture have never had more respect, more power, and more opportunities, nor been safer. Maybe you'd like to explain how women would be safer in nations where they're hidden head to toe in black robes so men don't get 'dirty' thoughts about them. Maybe you'd like to explain how it is a beautiful young women in a miniskirt is less likely to be harrassed walking downtown in Ottawa or Toronto or Montreal than a woman in a burkha walking through the streets of Cairo.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Argus

[Michael Hardner]

In other words, you don't have any idea what this 'rape culture' on campus is but you're willing to go along with whatever man hating propaganda is being put out.

Sorry - you asked the question, so I provided you a link. You made a claim, and I commented on that. I haven't made any claims independently here for you to go after.

I did read the OP and didn't understand the relationship between that and the opinion piece linked. You just seem to be angry about something that (I think) is pretty far outside your sphere of activity/influence, so this is really a thread about intervening; I think the idea is that something is going on at this school that you find unfair. I can see some points to be discussed in the article linked, but there are a lot of the usual Wente hyperbole.

[g_bambino]

They make derogatory remarks about a woman, talking about assaulting her sexual (one of them wanted to "punish her with [his] shaft") and you're going to sit here and sanitize it by calling it "having an opinion on sexuality"?... It's completely unacceptable.

I'm not going to defend the pretense that talking about using sex to punish a woman equates with an opinion on sexuality, but, I am curious: When a group of women talk and laugh together about holding some particular man down and doing whatever they want to him, do you damn them in the same way you do these UofO men? When a woman seduces a reluctant younger man, is that just a sexual initiation the man deserves a high-five for, or can it be construed as a sign of "rape culture"?

[Boges]

They make derogatory remarks about a woman, talking about assaulting her sexual (one of them wanted to "punish her with [his] shaft") and you're going to sit here and sanitize it by calling it "having an opinion on sexuality"? Come on. You're better than that. How would you like a woman in your family being talked about in that way for no other reason than she was in a higher position than these subordinates? It's completely unacceptable. But more importantly, what's frightening is the kind of culture that incubates the mentality that people need to have to make those kinds of comments about another human being. It goes back to what I'm saying about objectification. Women in our culture are considered objects, as opposed to human beings with their own thoughts and feelings.

Once being told what the contents of the Facebook posts actually contained, I conceded the point immediately. It was unacceptable language. It also speaks to the bigger issue of the online harassment at a whole. Which men are often victims of as well.

As for objectification of women. We have to classify what we're talking about here. Professional Cheerleaders? Waitresses at Hooters? Strippers? These are all women that use their sexuality to make a living, by choice. What about models on the covers of magazines? Are we to say all these things are a part of an overarching "rape culture"?

Edited March 10, 2014 by Boges

[Michael Hardner]

What about models on the covers of magazines? Are we to say all these things are a part of an overarching "rape culture"?

I would say that they are until we agree that they're not.

You can make jokes about Scots on television. I can make certain jokes in mixed company that I can't make in public. It will be a great day when we can make all kinds of jokes in public and people feel that they're just jokes, that they're not products of or symptoms of a negative underlying culture.

[TimG]

Those claiming that the campaign has nothing to do with changing the law should look at what is happening in California:

http://libertyunyielding.com/2014/03/09/california-activists-seek-redefine-quiet-consensual-sex-rape/#TVZrZH60qibb873V.99

In endorsing a bill in the California legislature that would require “affirmative consent” before sex can occur on campus, the editorial boards of the Sacramento and Fresno Bee and the Daily Californian advocated that sex be treated as “sexual assault” unless the participants discuss it “out loud” before sex, and “demonstrate they obtained verbal ‘affirmative consent’ before engaging in sexual activity.”

Activists don't start campaigns like this without either the belief that the law already matches their claims or that they intend the law to change. Trying to pretend that this campaign is not connected with the law is disingenuous.

Edited March 10, 2014 by TimG

[Guest]

How exactly would they “demonstrate they obtained verbal ‘affirmative consent’ before engaging in sexual activity"?

Twitter, maybe? Other social media? A separate Facebook page just for that purpose?

I guess they could use one of those devices that shipping companies use, for transmitting signatures back to a central location.

Anyway, I'm sure there will be an app for it soon.

[cybercoma]

I'm not going to defend the pretense that talking about using sex to punish a woman equates with an opinion on sexuality, but, I am curious: When a group of women talk and laugh together about holding some particular man down and doing whatever they want to him, do you damn them in the same way you do these UofO men? When a woman seduces a reluctant younger man, is that just a sexual initiation the man deserves a high-five for, or can it be construed as a sign of "rape culture"?

Get back to me when men are afraid to get into their date's car or walk home after the bars or wear the wrong kind of clothing or have too much to drink because they might get raped and be blamed as the victim. Is it wrong when women rape men? Absolutely. Does it happen nearly as severely or as frequently as it happens to women? Not even close. More to the point, even the language differs. "Having my way with him" is not the kind of violent language we saw in these Facebook posts, which explicitly said he was going to use sex as violence, as a way to punish her. I'm obviously not going to say it's ok when a woman rapes a man because that's a ridiculous pretence you threw into your argument there. But don't sit here and pretend that men's experience of rape from women is the same. In fact, men are far more likely to be raped by other men even. Edited March 11, 2014 by cybercoma

[g_bambino]

I'm obviously not going to say it's ok when a woman rapes a man because that's a ridiculous pretence you threw into your argument there. But don't sit here and pretend that men's experience of rape from women is the same. In fact, men are far more likely to be raped by other men even.

I'm going to assume you didn't mean to call rape a "ridiculous pretense" and point out that I didn't make an argument, I asked a question, a question you didn't answer; the relativism and judgment was all just a red herring. I asked if you thought women alluding to rape or a woman seducing a reluctant man into sex could be construed as signs of a "rape culture". We don't have to focus so narrowly on the specific incident at UofO, but, if you want to include it, a parallel could be drawn between it and those women who've said they want to see a man they don't like--an ex, a boss--sexually abused or having his genitals harmed, fantasising about using sex as a tool for humiliation. It seems clear that if a man says or does any of the aforementioned, you regard it as evidence of a "rape culture". Do you hold women to the same standard or uphold a double one?

[Argus]

Get back to me when men are afraid to get into their date's car or walk home after the bars or wear the wrong kind of clothing or have too much to drink because they might get raped and be blamed as the victim.

You seriously think being blamed is something they think about when contemplating the possibility of rape?

And if a woman is afraid to get into her date's car then maybe, just maybe, she shouldn't be dating that guy, huh?

[cybercoma]

I'm going to assume you didn't mean to call rape a "ridiculous pretense" and point out that I didn't make an argument, I asked a question, a question you didn't answer; the relativism and judgment was all just a red herring. I asked if you thought women alluding to rape or a woman seducing a reluctant man into sex could be construed as signs of a "rape culture". We don't have to focus so narrowly on the specific incident at UofO, but, if you want to include it, a parallel could be drawn between it and those women who've said they want to see a man they don't like--an ex, a boss--sexually abused or having his genitals harmed, fantasising about using sex as a tool for humiliation. It seems clear that if a man says or does any of the aforementioned, you regard it as evidence of a "rape culture". Do you hold women to the same standard or uphold a double one?

You want to know a better example of how rape culture affects men? The way we look at prison rape as perfectly normal in the US justice system.