Wilber Posted February 11, 2014 Report Posted February 11, 2014 London, New York, Beijing, Hong Kong and many other places are full of Canadian expats who choose to live elsewhere. My brother is one of them,. So what? He does not pay taxes to Canada, but on the other hand he doesn't get anything much either. he doesn't get OAS, cannot get any form of Canadian health care, and pays fat fees for the one link he has- renewing his passport. If he goes to see a doctor or hospital while visiting, he pays cash for service. Does your brother have dual citizenship with the country he is residing in? If so, Canada should have no obligation toward him as long as he is residing there. Our citizenship confers a lot of rights (voting etc) but no obligations if you are a non resident. On the other hand, American citizens are subject to US income tax regardless of where they reside. Your brother would have to pay fat fees to get a passport from some country. The fact he is entitled to a Canadian passport is nothing to whine about. I would qualify for UK citizenship because of my mother. My sister applied and got it. As much as I like visiting the UK and London is one of my favourite cities, I am a Canadian and feel no need for another citizenship or can think of any reason why the UK should owe me the benefit of having theirs. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Army Guy Posted February 12, 2014 Report Posted February 12, 2014 Army Guy, on 11 Feb 2014 - 08:25 AM, said: In the last 25 years, our asylum system has allowed more than 700,000 people to enter Canada simply by claiming to be persecuted in their own countries. None was pre-screened for medical, criminal or security issues, and many were smuggled into the country by international criminal gangs. do you have a cite for that? My numbers suggest much less than that. Army Guy, on 11 Feb 2014 - 08:25 AM, said: In the last 25 years, our asylum system has allowed more than 700,000 people to enter Canada simply by claiming to be persecuted in their own countries. None was pre-screened for medical, criminal or security issues, and many were smuggled into the country by international criminal gangs. do you have a cite for that? My numbers suggest much less than that. That was taken directly of one of the many quotes i provided.I think it was this one below, or the other with the same CSIS in the title. http://www.csis-scrs...grndr08-eng.asp Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted February 12, 2014 Report Posted February 12, 2014 They aren't "Lebanese-Canadians' under our laws, they are simply Canadian citizens who have EXACTLY the same rights and responsibilities as do natural born Canadians. You can ask what you want, but the reality is that is the law we chose and you, I and everybody else exist under the same rules. Why would they apply for citizenship? Obviously because it confers rights and privileges that benefit the holder. I don't see why that is confusing. I can't think of anybody who doesn't take what our system has to offer, and it is not much in real terms unless you are a LEGAL RESIDENT of Canada. being a resident is far more beneficial than being a citizen in terms of what is available. If you don';t like it, support change. But to criticize anybody for simply obeying our laws- as a good citizen would do- is ridiculous. Personally, I think a lot of the endless sniping about the people rescued from Lebanon relates to their brown skin. London, New York, Beijing, Hong Kong and many other places are full of Canadian expats who choose to live elsewhere. My brother is one of them,. So what? He does not pay taxes to Canada, but on the other hand he doesn't get anything much either. he doesn't get OAS, cannot get any form of Canadian health care, and pays fat fees for the one link he has- renewing his passport. If he goes to see a doctor or hospital while visiting, he pays cash for service. I don't think it's confusing i think it should be changed....and i support that change....And i did not critize anyone , those quotes were from the links i provided. Yes lets drop the skin color bomb, i'm a racist becaue i think that dual citizenship should be changed, i personally don't care if they were purple with warts on their dicks....i don't think dual citizenship is good for the country. I have no problem if you chose to live else where, apply and if accepted move, Canada gives you that chioce...i personally think everyone should be entitled to one citizenship only.....Now if your brother returns to Canada, would he be entitled medical care, or any other plan we are taxed for...the answer is yes, The Khadrs are an example of this, they receive medical care, welfare, the whole nine yards...these plans are paid for by regular citizens who live and taxed here....that is my problem with dual citizenship.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Bob Macadoo Posted February 12, 2014 Report Posted February 12, 2014 Now if your brother returns to Canada, would he be entitled medical care, or any other plan we are taxed for...the answer is yes, The Khadrs are an example of this, they receive medical care, welfare, the whole nine yards...these plans are paid for by regular citizens who live and taxed here....that is my problem with dual citizenship.... Everyone is an example of this. Its called being a resident for 3 months and hence paying taxes for that time. If your argument is that you should be paying taxes for longer than 3 months before collecting, then make it but don't say you deserve health care when moving to ON whether you came here from Oromocto NB rather than Beirut Lebanon. Quote
Army Guy Posted February 13, 2014 Report Posted February 13, 2014 (edited) Your right Bob , i'm in the military so i do have medical coverage as soon as i get on the ground, and assumed everyone else did as well. That being said Omars brother did he have to wait to recieve medical coverage for his wounds he recieved in Afghan ? Did they have to wait to recieve any other form of assistance such as welfare, etc.... Edited February 13, 2014 by Army Guy Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Bob Macadoo Posted February 13, 2014 Report Posted February 13, 2014 You have to be a resident for 153 days in ON and be a legal resident. Quote
Argus Posted February 13, 2014 Report Posted February 13, 2014 You have to be a resident for 153 days in ON and be a legal resident. Or what? The hospital will turn you away? I don't think so. Ontario is even voluntarily paying the health care costs for refugees who just got off the plane. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
overthere Posted February 14, 2014 Report Posted February 14, 2014 Does your brother have dual citizenship with the country he is residing in? If so, Canada should have no obligation toward him as long as he is residing there. Our citizenship confers a lot of rights (voting etc) but no obligations if you are a non resident. On the other hand, American citizens are subject to US income tax regardless of where they reside. Your brother would have to pay fat fees to get a passport from some country. The fact he is entitled to a Canadian passport is nothing to whine about. I would qualify for UK citizenship because of my mother. My sister applied and got it. As much as I like visiting the UK and London is one of my favourite cities, I am a Canadian and feel no need for another citizenship or can think of any reason why the UK should owe me the benefit of having theirs. There are no degrees of equality in Canadian citizenship. All citzens have the same rights and obligations no matter where they are born, or where they reside. I knwo that chaps a lot of asses, but so it goes. The rules regarding UK citzenship(and I'm in the same situation as you) have nothing to do with the rights and obligations of Canadian citzenship. Its their rules. Oh, and getting or keeping a Canadian passport is NOT an entitlement. It is a privilege, which can be withheld or withdrawn by the government. The Canadian government has no actual duty to help Canadians singly or en masse in times of need. Every case is assessed on its merits. Quote Science too hard for you? Try religion!
overthere Posted February 14, 2014 Report Posted February 14, 2014 I don't think it's confusing i think it should be changed....and i support that change....And i did not critize anyone , those quotes were from the links i provided. Yes lets drop the skin color bomb, i'm a racist becaue i think that dual citizenship should be changed, i personally don't care if they were purple with warts on their dicks....i don't think dual citizenship is good for the country. I have no problem if you chose to live else where, apply and if accepted move, Canada gives you that chioce...i personally think everyone should be entitled to one citizenship only.....Now if your brother returns to Canada, would he be entitled medical care, or any other plan we are taxed for...the answer is yes, The Khadrs are an example of this, they receive medical care, welfare, the whole nine yards...these plans are paid for by regular citizens who live and taxed here....that is my problem with dual citizenship.... Wrong. The answer is no, he would not be entitled to welfare, health care, OAS or any number of social programs because he is not a resident. if he establishes residceny, then he becomes elegible. Get it straight: being a citizen and being a resident are two different things. He has returned to Canada many times, has used the health care system a few times, and has paid for it both through private travel insurance and cash out of pocket. Quote Science too hard for you? Try religion!
Wilber Posted February 14, 2014 Report Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) There are no degrees of equality in Canadian citizenship. All citzens have the same rights and obligations no matter where they are born, or where they reside. I knwo that chaps a lot of asses, but so it goes. I agree, there are no classes of Canadian citizenship, that is why I maintain that all dual citizens should all be treated the same. A dual citizen who is convicted of a terrorist act or treason against Canada should be, but not necessarily subject to forfeit of their Canadian citizenship regardless of where they were born. I don't think that is either onerous or unreasonable. It's not like they are being made stateless with nowhere to go. Oh, and getting or keeping a Canadian passport is NOT an entitlement. It is a privilege, which can be withheld or withdrawn by the government. Not arbitrarily. There must be cause. The Canadian government has no actual duty to help Canadians singly or en masse in times of need. Every case is assessed on its merits. Disagree with that. It definitely does have a duty to assist Canadian citizens in time of need. The question is, does it have a duty to assist the citizens of another country when they are residing in that other country and I emphasize residing, not visiting. The rules regarding UK citzenship(and I'm in the same situation as you) have nothing to do with the rights and obligations of Canadian citzenship. Its their rules. Yes, their rules but we are not debating their rules. Edited February 14, 2014 by Wilber Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Wilber Posted February 14, 2014 Report Posted February 14, 2014 You have to be a resident for 153 days in ON and be a legal resident. Seems to me that when I moved back to BC from Ontario many years ago there was a waiting period before I was eligible for coverage in BC. If I remember right, I was still covered by OHIP during that period but had to pay up front and make a claim to them. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
overthere Posted February 14, 2014 Report Posted February 14, 2014 Disagree with that. It definitely does have a duty to assist Canadian citizens in time of need. The question is, does it have a duty to assist the citizens of another country when they are residing in that other country and I emphasize residing, not visiting. Nope. Thats why we pay consular staff, to make those assessments of need. They do it every day, and do not act uniformly or act at all, just becauswe you're a citizen. There are plenty of Canadians in prisons world wide who get help from consualr staff, but there are far more who get nothing much after their situation is assessed. The bais of the assessment is: were they treated fairly under the laws of the country? The 'help' is anything but automatic. People that are helped by consular staff abroad most often have to pay for it - which is only fair. The dual citizenship 'issue' is anything but,and it has nothing to do with the rights and responsibilites of Canadian citizens- dual or singe or multiple citizens. No degrees of equality, so stop arguing as if there were please. The 'question' is answered by either consular staff in day to day calamities, or by the Minister of Foreign Affairs in large dustups where Canadians are affected. For Example, Foreign Affairs got involved after the sinking of the Costa Concordia, where a bunch of Canadians found themselves without documents or money, sodden on the beach in Italy. Consualr staff would provide travel documents and perhaps airfare home if absolutley necessary. Every person affected would have had to eventually pay for the new passports, and for their travel costs. They could likely get it back from th cruise line, but they'd still have to pay it back in any case. Quote Science too hard for you? Try religion!
Wilber Posted February 15, 2014 Report Posted February 15, 2014 Like I said, Canada is obligated to help. I never said it was unlimited or open ended. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
jacee Posted June 26, 2014 Report Posted June 26, 2014 /rocco_galati_launches_citizenship_act_legal_challenge Galati bases his challenge on the 1867 and 1982 Constitution Acts, which he says give the federal government power over aliens and naturalization but, he argues, confer no power to strip Canadian-born people of their citizenship. He traces his argument back to the Magna Cart a, stating that citizenship is not a right the government can strip from those born on its soil. Interesting ... I hope he wins. My problem with the legislation is that it discriminates against people with dual citizenship. Quote
cybercoma Posted June 28, 2014 Report Posted June 28, 2014 (edited) IMO, anyone born in Canada should not be stripped of their citizenship under any circumstances. Anyone who swears an oath and gains citizenship, should not be a second-class citizen. Their citizenship should have identical rights and responsibilities. IOW, they should never be stripped of their citizenship either.If this government has a problem with dual-citizens and sees them as less than full citizens, then they should move to eliminate dual-citizenship. Create a stipulation that Canadian citizenship may not be held with any other citizenships. Force those who already have dual citizenship to choose which nation's citizenship they're going to give up.I hate the idea, but if they're going to do anything then that's the way to go. Edited June 28, 2014 by cybercoma Quote
Argus Posted June 28, 2014 Report Posted June 28, 2014 (edited) My problem with the legislation is that it discriminates against people with dual citizenship. That ignores the fact that people come here from abroad carrying baggage, and that the mere act of application can lend itself to fraud and dishonesty in order to obtain something of value. Who would likely ever have their citizenship removed? Repeated violent criminals, terrorists, and those who lied and commited fraud to get in in the first place. Your sympathy for such people is misplaced. Edited June 28, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
jacee Posted June 28, 2014 Report Posted June 28, 2014 That ignores the fact that people come here from abroad carrying baggage, and that the mere act of application can lend itself to fraud and dishonesty in order to obtain something of value.There already is a law that anyone who gains Canadian citizenship through fraud or lies will lose their citizenship. That's not what this legislation is about. Who would likely ever have their citizenship removed? Repeated violent criminals, terrorists, and those who lied and commited fraud to get in in the first place. Your sympathy for such people is misplaced. This is about people who hold dual citizenship and are convicted of a terrorist act, some of whom were born here and may have never lived anywhere else.My problem is ... take two Canadian citizens, both born here, both convicted of a terrorist act, both sentenced to prison, but only one of them loses his Canadian citizenship as well ... because he happens to also have citizenship for another country (through his parents) where he has never lived and has no family, etc. Same crime, same time, but one gets an additional lifelong 'sentence' of losing citizenship. I'm not sympathetic to people who commit terrorist acts, but lack of fairness in the law concerns me. Quote
jacee Posted June 28, 2014 Report Posted June 28, 2014 (edited) IMO, anyone born in Canada should not be stripped of their citizenship under any circumstances. Anyone who swears an oath and gains citizenship, should not be a second-class citizen. Their citizenship should have identical rights and responsibilities. IOW, they should never be stripped of their citizenship either.[/quote[ If this government has a problem with dual-citizens and sees them as less than full citizens, then they should move to eliminate dual-citizenship. Create a stipulation that Canadian citizenship may not be held with any other citizenships. Force those who already have dual citizenship to choose which nation's citizenship they're going to give up. I hate the idea, but if they're going to do anything then that's the way to go. Some parents are from two different countries,and they and their kids all have dual citizenship, and they may live in each country for a time to be near respective families/grandparents. And if the Harper government has a problem with that ... they can go p!ss up a rope! OR ... go toe to toe with angry Grandma Bear! . Edited June 28, 2014 by jacee Quote
Argus Posted June 29, 2014 Report Posted June 29, 2014 My problem is ... take two Canadian citizens, both born here, both convicted of a terrorist act, both sentenced to prison, but only one of them loses his Canadian citizenship as well ... The portion of the law which applies to dual citizens can only be envoked for treason terrorism, or spying for another country - presumably the one you were born in. These are not crimes in the sense robbing a bank is a crime. These are crimes under the National Defense Act which involve acting against the whole of Canada on behalf of a foreign power or entity. As far as I'm concerned, someone convicted of that is not really a Canadian anyway, and obviously would prefer being back 'home' with those he was acting for. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted June 29, 2014 Report Posted June 29, 2014 Some parents are from two different countries,and they and their kids all have dual citizenship, and they may live in each country for a time to be near respective families/grandparents. And if those people are convicted of spying on Canada or commit terrorist acts here on behalf of that second country they can go live there permanently. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
cybercoma Posted June 29, 2014 Report Posted June 29, 2014 That ignores the fact that people come here from abroad carrying baggage, and that the mere act of application can lend itself to fraud and dishonesty in order to obtain something of value.Who would likely ever have their citizenship removed? Repeated violent criminals, terrorists, and those who lied and commited fraud to get in in the first place.Your sympathy for such people is misplaced.What sympathy? We have a legal system don't we? Quote
cybercoma Posted June 29, 2014 Report Posted June 29, 2014 Some parents are from two different countries,and they and their kids all have dual citizenship, and they may live in each country for a time to be near respective families/grandparents. And if the Harper government has a problem with that ... they can go p!ss up a rope! OR ... go toe to toe with angry Grandma Bear! . sorry, but people don't have a right to dual citizenships. The government can make it a requirement that citizens don't hold more than one citizenship. Parents from different countries? Tough. Take your pick. Quote
cybercoma Posted June 29, 2014 Report Posted June 29, 2014 The portion of the law which applies to dual citizens can only be envoked for treason terrorism, or spying for another country - presumably the one you were born in. These are not crimes in the sense robbing a bank is a crime. These are crimes under the National Defense Act which involve acting against the whole of Canada on behalf of a foreign power or entity. As far as I'm concerned, someone convicted of that is not really a Canadian anyway, and obviously would prefer being back 'home' with those he was acting for.the should be treated exactly as any other Canadian would be. Quote
jacee Posted June 29, 2014 Report Posted June 29, 2014 sorry, but people don't have a right to dual citizenships. The government can make it a requirement that citizens don't hold more than one citizenship. Parents from different countries? Tough. Take your pick.wow Quote
monty16 Posted June 29, 2014 Report Posted June 29, 2014 I agree with most of it. I have a problem with being able to revoke someone's citizenship without the courts having the final say. Would the rules regarding revoking the citizenship of those holding dual citizenship apply to all dual citizens, including native born Canadians? They should, otherwise we will have two classes of citizen. Also, like Big Guy says, the question of "convicted by who" needs clarifying. This needs a lot more explanation and discussion so its implications can be crystal clear to everyone. Think it through Wilber, As long as the Conservatives under Harper are in control we'll keep on bending to the wishes of the US in order to pacify them on their phony war against terrurism. Isn't it obvious enough already who the bad guys are when they hold prisoners for years without trial. Not to mention torturing them and killing them for sport? Harper's handlers of course. He sits in their laps while they groom him. Quote
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