The NDP has got something right

[cybercoma]

PC and ING immediately come to mind.

And as mentioned earlier. People are lazy, they'll just pay the fees and wonder where all their money went.

PC and ING both charge fees. Any other ideas?

[TimG]

So? No need to emulate the perceived negative aspects of UK banking…..As I said, the UK can manage with no fees, but Canadian banks couldn’t manage with smaller fees that cover the cost of transaction…..come on.

You have not explained why governments should suddenly be entitled to determine how much profit a private business can make in a competitive market. You are usually very much opposed to government interference in the private market - what makes ATM fees so special?

[Guest Derek L]

What is so special about running an ATM that requires government intervention? Do you think hair stylists and dentists should have their fees capped to allow only a small profit margin? There is no monopoly here. People always have the choice of planning ahead and getting the cash they need from their bank.

The Government of Canada, as far as I know, didn't fork out $114 billion to hair stylists, and I can assure you, not to dentists.

ATM fees are not the banks gouging customers. It is the owner of the machine which is charging for the service. It is absolutely crazy to suggest that banks be forced to pay for outside services that their customers choose to use. If governments do this then banks will have to recover the costs.

As I said, I bank with CIBC, but if I go to a Royal Bank machine, I pay $2.00+ to withdraw cash.....seems like the banks to me.

[Guest Derek L]

You have not explained why governments should suddenly be entitled to determine how much profit a private business can make in a competitive market. You are usually very much opposed to government interference in the private market - what makes ATM fees so special?

$114 billion reasons.

[Boges]

PC and ING both charge fees. Any other ideas?

I deal with ING and have never been charged to move my money around. Granted I only use it to hold my RRSP funds.

Regarding PC. Is their website lying?

http://www.banking.pcfinancial.ca/mkt/bankaccounts/bankaccounts-en.html?region=ON&language=en&signinop=

Join the more than 1 million Canadians who enjoy free daily banking with us†. Whether you're looking for a free day-to-day chequing account or high-interest savings account, with President's Choice Financial® you get great value everyday.

* No fee daily banking

* Great rate high-interest savings account

* One of the largest bank machine networks in Canada

Edited February 3, 2014 by Boges

[TimG]

The Government of Canada, as far as I know, didn't fork out $114 billion to hair stylists, and I can assure you, not to dentists.

So do you go to a GM dealership and demand that they provide warranty service on your Ford? It makes as much sense.

In addition, GM got an actual bailout - Canadian banks were simply allowed to use the government of Canada to convert mortgages into liquid assets so they would not encounter cash flow problems. This was no bailout and it certainly does not mean the government should pander to people who are too bloody lazy to plan their banking.

]As I said, I bank with CIBC, but if I go to a Royal Bank machine, I pay $2.00+ to withdraw cash.....seems like the banks to me.

Sure - but you also complained about the ATMs in the pub and those are not owned by banks.

Also: you are avoiding the real issue here: you are too lazy to plan your banking and you want other people to pay for your laziness. You sound like a deadbeat rationalizing their need to be on welfare because the don't like minimum wage jobs.

Edited February 3, 2014 by TimG

[Guest Derek L]

So do you go to a GM dealership and demand that they provide warranty service on your Ford? It makes as much sense.

In addition, GM got an actual bailout - Canadian banks were simply allowed to use the government of Canada to convert mortgages into liquid assets so they would not encounter cash flow problems. This was no bailout and it certainly does not mean the government should pander to people who are too bloody lazy to plan their banking.

The proposal to cap banking fees was in the last Throne speech.....so yeah, they should follow through.

[Keepitsimple]

$114 billion reasons.

What a crock. Canadian Banks were never in danger. The problem that the government was adressing dealt with the credit crunch. Banks were reluctant to lend money in recessionary conditions.....so the government (via CMHC) "bought" billions in mortgages most of which were fully insured, thus freeing up cash for Banks to be a little more lenient in granting loans. It was a prudent move, one that actually earned CMHC a couple of billion in profit. A true win-win situation that played a part in Canada weathering the storm.

[cybercoma]

I deal with ING and have never been charged to move my money around. Granted I only use it to hold my RRSP funds.

Regarding PC. Is their website lying?

http://www.banking.pcfinancial.ca/mkt/bankaccounts/bankaccounts-en.html?region=ON&language=en&signinop=

Now explain to me why the other banks need to charge usurious fees, when these guys don't.

[cybercoma]

The proposal to cap banking fees was in the last Throne speech...

Yeah, but blind partisanship means they have to reject it because it's from another party. It's madness on this forum sometimes.

[Guest Derek L]

What a crock. Canadian Banks were never in danger. The problem that the government was adressing dealt with the credit crunch. Banks were reluctant to lend money in recessionary conditions.....so the government (via CMHC) "bought" billions in mortgages most of which were fully insured, thus freeing up cash for Banks to be a little more lenient in granting loans. It was a prudent move, one that actually earned CMHC a couple of billion in profit. A true win-win situation that played a part in Canada weathering the storm.

From the link:

It says support for Canadian banks from various agencies reached $114 billion at its peak. That works out to $3,400 for every man, woman and child in Canada, and also to seven per cent of Canada's gross domestic product in 2009.

That’s fine, so they can now return the favour to Canadians and reduce ATM fees to cover their costs.

[Boges]

Now explain to me why the other banks need to charge usurious fees, when these guys don't.

Well these guys are owned by the Big guys. CIBC owns PC and ScotiaBank recently purchased ING.

You have to sacrifice the convenience of having branches everywhere and a consultant available at your whim during business hours.

For example, with ING, I have to call up and talk to a Customer Service Person if I want advice on how to invest my RRSP this year. With a Big four bank I can call and make an interview for this afternoon.

Edited February 3, 2014 by Boges

[TimG]

Now explain to me why the other banks need to charge usurious fees, when these guys don't.

There is a competitive marketplace which means the government has reason to care. The question I ask: if these fees are really an issue they why don't people flock to these alternatives? It seems to me that the market is saying these fees are no big deal and it is just political grandstanding.

[Guest Derek L]

Yeah, but blind partisanship means they have to reject it because it's from another party. It's madness on this forum sometimes.

Indeed......As I said, I hope the NDP and some members from the CPC can get this piece passed.......Sure it’s insignificant in the scheme of things, but it’s both populous politics and would help lower income Canadians.

[TimG]

That’s fine, so they can now return the favour to Canadians and reduce ATM fees to cover their costs.

Nonsense. The money was paid back WITH interest (i.e. the government made a profit on the deal). No obligation was incurred.

If you really cared about bank charges you would look at the costs imposed on small businesses. These are astronomical and impossible to avoid. ATM fees are easily avoided which is why I oppose doing anything about be cause I don't believe the government should reward the lazy.

Edited February 3, 2014 by TimG

[Guest Derek L]

Nonsense. The money was paid back WITH interest (i.e. the government made a profit on the deal). No obligation was incurred.

If you really cared about bank charges you would look at the costs imposed on small businesses. These are astronomical and impossible to avoid. ATM fees are easily avoided which is why I oppose doing anything about be cause I don't believe the government should reward the lazy.

I’ll take it up with the proletariat

[overthere]

People are charged when they use Interac and the charge is by the network operator and it is not charged by the bank of the customer getting charged. Most banks offer free withdrawals if you use their machines. I think it completely unreasonable to tell banks that they must pay the cost of an outside service provider on behalf of their customers. All such a law means is the monthly charges for accounts will go up and that pisses me off because I am careful enough to use my own bank's machine and I don't see why I should pay more because other people are too lazy to do so.

People get confused by our system, which used to be the cheapest debit system in the world - but that will be temporary.....until the greedheads at all the banks and VISA/Mastercard get their way.

There are two fees, or possible fees:

1. The iNterac system is essentially a very low cost clearinghouse for Interac purchases. It costs consumers very little, costs the banks more or less nothing, and the merchants who do pay fees wich are tiny pass those on to consumers. The Interac system is why Canada is a global leader in debit card usage: it is cheap here. But not for long.

2. The bank fees are those banks charge their sutomers under sundry service plans. They are plainly stated on statements or individual transactions, so there should not be any consumer surprises.

The nasty bastards at the banks/CC companies are introducing VISA/Mastercard debit cards, which of course have much higher fees. They are used everyhwere in the USA, many retail businesses there MUST take only CC branded debit cards, which is why your Canadian bank branded cards often don't work there- the retailers are bound by the same horrible terms they have for their credit cards.

And its coming to Canada!

And of course our banks are all for VISA/MC debit cards, becuase they will get a slice. Merchants pay much higher fees, consumers pay the merchants. Prices go up. It's going to be ugly.

[Guest Derek L]

The nasty bastards at the banks/CC companies are introducing VISA/Mastercard debit cards, which of course have much higher fees. They are used everyhwere in the USA, many retail businesses there MUST take only CC branded debit cards, which is why your Canadian bank branded cards often don't work there- the retailers are bound by the same horrible terms they have for their credit cards.

And its coming to Canada!

Do they though? I've a Visa debt card through CIBC and haven't noticed a change in that regard.

[TimG]

The nasty bastards at the banks/CC companies are introducing VISA/Mastercard debit cards, which of course have much higher fees.

Yep - if governments are going mess with the banking system they should simply require that all CC companies allow merchants to charge different prices based whether a card is used. Some businesses won't bother because they calculate the CC service fees are worth it. Others will not. But the virtue is merchants have a choice which is more meaningful than price everything the same or don't accept credit cards. Edited February 3, 2014 by TimG

[Boges]

People get confused by our system, which used to be the cheapest debit system in the world - but that will be temporary.....until the greedheads at all the banks and VISA/Mastercard get their way.

There are two fees, or possible fees:

1. The iNterac system is essentially a very low cost clearinghouse for Interac purchases. It costs consumers very little, costs the banks more or less nothing, and the merchants who do pay fees wich are tiny pass those on to consumers. The Interac system is why Canada is a global leader in debit card usage: it is cheap here. But not for long.

2. The bank fees are those banks charge their sutomers under sundry service plans. They are plainly stated on statements or individual transactions, so there should not be any consumer surprises.

The nasty bastards at the banks/CC companies are introducing VISA/Mastercard debit cards, which of course have much higher fees. They are used everyhwere in the USA, many retail businesses there MUST take only CC branded debit cards, which is why your Canadian bank branded cards often don't work there- the retailers are bound by the same horrible terms they have for their credit cards.

And its coming to Canada!

And of course our banks are all for VISA/MC debit cards, becuase they will get a slice. Merchants pay much higher fees, consumers pay the merchants. Prices go up. It's going to be ugly.

Are you saying that a purchase made with a Visa branded debit card (I currently have one) is subject to the merchant charge of a traditional Visa?

If so, that's a very sneaky way to boost profits. I actually would support government reform to control merchant fees via Credit cards as most everyone uses CCs or Debit to make day to day purchases these days. And as you say, it ultimately leads to higher prices

With chip technology it's often even quicker to buy a $2 coffee with a card than with cash.

But that doesn't have anything to do with the fees banks charge to customers. That's something wise customers can certainly work to avoid (usually by using Credit Cards :-/)

Edited February 3, 2014 by Boges

[overthere]

Do they though? I've a Visa debt card through CIBC and haven't noticed a change in that regard.

Yes, the fees are much higher on MC/VISA debit cards than on Interac. The fees are shared between MC/VISA and the isuuing bank.

They aren't charged directly to you though, they are charged to the merchants. The merchants- of course- pass on all their costs to you, or they won't be merchants for long. With Interac, the fees are only enough to cover the operation of the system and are miniscule.

The banks have been quiet about this switcheroo, they do not want the sheep to look up. Oh no.

I confronted a bank manager about this with the direct question of 'how are you serving your bank customers with this change(I was getting a new debit card and had been offered a VISA branded card)?". He tried lamely to tell me it was better for travelling, more conveneinet, then gave up and fled in shame when I let him know their actual motive.

For now you can get either a bank branded card on Interac or an MC/VISA card. You can bet your ass on which one the banks are pushing.

[overthere]

Are you saying that a purchase made with a Visa branded debit card (I currently have one) is subject to the merchant charge of a traditional Visa?

If so, that's a very sneaky way to boost profits. I actually would support government reform to control merchant fees via Credit cards as most everyone uses CCs or Debit to make day to day purchases these days. And as you say, it ultimately leads to higher prices

With chip technology it's often even quicker to buy a $2 coffee with a card than with cash.

But that doesn't have anything to do with the fees banks charge to customers. That's something wise customers can certainly work to avoid (usually by using Credit Cards :-/)

Yes, the merchants will have to pay higher fees on CC branded debit cards. Not as high as credit card fees, but percentage wise far more than on Interac. Oh, and of course merchants will not have any choice in what cards they accept, just as they MUST accept premium credit cards now, because of their agreements with CC compmanies. Soon enough, they'll be obliged only to take CC branded cards, reject bank branded cards and the screwing of every Canadian will be consumated. Since we as a nation are absoluytely addicted to debit card use, they can crank up the fees after that to wherever they please. And they will.

I am aware that it is not the same as the fees that banks charge to customers, but the early part of this thread made it apparent that others were confused.

[Guest Derek L]

Yes, the fees are much higher on MC/VISA debit cards than on Interac. The fees are shared between MC/VISA and the isuuing bank.

They aren't charged directly to you though, they are charged to the merchants.

Do you have a source? That’s very interesting and admittedly, I didn’t really fathom the whole Visa debt card thing….

[Boges]

I can see why the CC company would do that. In the US they're just as good as a CC so it stands to reason you can charge the same as a CC. The only real difference is how the consumer pays. With Debit it's immediately taken out of the Chequing account and with CC's you at least 3 weeks to pay interest free.

This is why I usually use Credit Cards, so this doesn't really make a difference to me.

[Shady]

Great idea. Give us a list.

ING, Presidents Choice are two off the top of my head.

Hey NDP, I think I have to pay too much for parking. I demand legislation!!! Oh and too much for vodka. Legislation!!!