Ukraine crisis

[jbg]

Latest devolopments, at least on the CBC which is usually way above the US media on being correct, is that the Ukraine conflict is now a dead issue. They state that there is really no issue for the US/Nato to further pursue the fact that the Crimea is Russia's and no position that would dispute that can be credible.

Unfortunately I have to agree since I am sure that Ukraine did not include Crimean votes in its election.

Before you point out that the U.S. didn't include Confederate votes during the Civil War, that was only from areas in rebellion. Senator Andrew Johnson of Tennessee, who remained loyal, kept his seat.

[monty16]

Unfortunately I have to agree since I am sure that Ukraine did not include Crimean votes in its election.

Before you point out that the U.S. didn't include Confederate votes during the Civil War, that was only from areas in rebellion. Senator Andrew Johnson of Tennessee, who remained loyal, kept his seat.

What's unfortunate about the will of the people prevailing?

All I'm really interested in now is how the new president elect will make it appear that he wants a unitied Ukraine with respect for the rights of the Russian speaking people. This is the illusion that must be maintained as he gets in bed with the US/Nato in their attempt to bring the Ukraine into Nato.

We will all have to be vigilant in order to determine which side applies force first, Russia or the US/Nato? While on the ground the Ukraine is in the process of bombing one of it's airports to kill the socalled separatists. Why jbg, isn't that the egregious crime of the other side that started this whole affair?

[jbg]

What's unfortunate about the will of the people prevailing?

My point is that the secession by Crimea and the rebellion in other areas guaranteed that Russian-speakers would have a limited role

All I'm really interested in now is how the new president elect will make it appear that he wants a unitied Ukraine with respect for the rights of the Russian speaking people.

What does "unitied" mean? As far as "rights" go Europe has made a career spanning centuries of denying rights to linguistic or ethnic minorities. Thank G-d the U.S. and Canada are better. Not perfect but better.

This is the illusion that must be maintained as he gets in bed with the US/Nato in their attempt to bring the Ukraine into Nato.

What illusion? Your post is sliding into incoherence.

We will all have to be vigilant in order to determine which side applies force first, Russia or the US/Nato?

What role do we have, other than NATO possibly determining that its vital interests are threatened. What do we need to be "vigilant" about?

While on the ground the Ukraine is in the process of bombing one of it's airports to kill the socalled separatists.

What does the word "socalled" mean? And aren't at least some of the masked separatists in fact associated with Russia's army?

Why jbg, isn't that the egregious crime of the other side that started this whole affair?

What "egregious crime"? Edited May 26, 2014 by jbg

[monty16]

What's unfortunate about the will of the people prevailing?

My point is that the secession by Crimea and the rebellion in other areas guaranteed that Russian-speakers would have a limited role

All I'm really interested in now is how the new president elect will make it appear that he wants a unitied Ukraine with respect for the rights of the Russian speaking people.

What does "unitied" mean? As far as "rights" go Europe has made a career spanning centuries of denying rights to linguistic or ethnic minorities. Thank G-d the U.S. and Canada are better. Not perfect but better.

This is the illusion that must be maintained as he gets in bed with the US/Nato in their attempt to bring the Ukraine into Nato.

What illusion? Your post is sliding into incoherence.

We will all have to be vigilant in order to determine which side applies force first, Russia or the US/Nato?

What role do we have, other than NATO possibly determining that its vital interests are threatened. What do we need to be "vigilant" about?

While on the ground the Ukraine is in the process of bombing one of it's airports to kill the socalled separatists.

What does the word "socalled" mean? And aren't at least some of the masked separatists in fact associated with Russia's army?

quote name="monty16" post="968230" timestamp="1401127427"]

Why jbg, isn't that the egregious crime of the other side that started this whole affair?

What "egregious crime"?

I think we have to be vigilant in order to determine whether it is Russia continuing to cause the unrest or it's the US/Nato meddling in the Ukraine. The egregious crime of killing people on Yanukovich's and his government's behalf. You see, when separatists or terrorists or dissenters are killed in the streets for staging protests, we have to try to determine where the guilt should be placed. It's not always easy to do that and it begs the question if we think back to the Kent state massacre or to Tiannamen square. For the purpose of this conversation I'm taking no position on either of those two latter examples.

[jbg]

I think we have to be vigilant in order to determine whether it is Russia continuing to cause the unrest or it's the US/Nato meddling in the Ukraine. The egregious crime of killing people on Yanukovich's and his government's behalf. You see, when separatists or terrorists or dissenters are killed in the streets for staging protests, we have to try to determine where the guilt should be placed.

I only fixed your post to reflect nesting errors I created.

I think there's little question that Russia does not totally recognize Ukraine's independence, or for that matter that of any of the states carved out of its 1941-1990 borders. It isn't bashful about that non-recognition.

It's not always easy to do that and it begs the question if we think back to the Kent state massacre or to Tiannamen square. For the purpose of this conversation I'm taking no position on either of those two latter examples.

I find your comparison of Tiaanamen Square and Kent State officensive. The Chinese demonstrators threatened no on. The Kent State situation was a near-riot, rather scary for civilian National Guardsmen who were facing the rocks and bottles.

[monty16]

I only fixed your post to reflect nesting errors I created.

I think there's little question that Russia does not totally recognize Ukraine's independence, or for that matter that of any of the states carved out of its 1941-1990 borders. It isn't bashful about that non-recognition.

And we disagree over the cause of the trouble because I believe it was US/Nato plans of expanision right from the beginning. I find it strange that I have to reiterate that. And of course I understand your position.

I find your comparison of Tiaanamen Square and Kent State officensive. The Chinese demonstrators threatened no on. The Kent State situation was a near-riot, rather scary for civilian National Guardsmen who were facing the rocks and bottles.

I don't consider your being offended to be valid and besides, I've already said that wouldn't be an issue for further discussion with me. The issue is clear and that's our disagreement over what side caused the trouble in the Ukraine and of course my assertion that the Yanukovich government was the democratically elected government and that US/Nato interference and it's covert support of the rebels was the cause of it's fall. And yes, I do understand that you feel that the Yanukovich government was to blame.

Now it's time to move on and the logical place to move it in being 'vigilant' in observing why the trouble will continue. Accepting that some don't think it will continue.

[ASIP]

Unfortunately I have to agree since I am sure that Ukraine did not include Crimean votes in its election.

You are only partially correct. Poling stations did not work in Crimea. People voted in mainland country.

Edited May 26, 2014 by ASIP

[ASIP]

Interesting. Do you really believe that Crimea is still considered part of Ukraine. If so then considered by whom?

It is easier to list who do not consider Crimea a part of Ukraine.

That Crimea belongs to Ukraine was confirmed by the newly elected Ukrainian president Mr. Poroshenko immediately upon receiving news that he has decisive lead in votes. If it is not enough for you, how about, Canada, USA, EU, NATO, UN...

"Thus, people from all 24 oblasts plus Crimea have voted." That is also an interesting position. It may satisfy a position that you would like to see but to say that there was a vote in Crimea when there were no ballots, no people voting and no results does stretch the credibility of the statement. I have no doubt that those supporting Kiev would like that to be the case but basic logic undermines that statement.

I really do not understand how somebody could make that statement with a straight face. Maybe I misread the statement. Perhaps you were being sarcastic?

I have explained you, several thousand Ukrainian citizens who live in Crimea voted in mainland Ukraine. Certainly, it's a purely symbolical act, however, in legal sense numbers don't matter.

[jbg]

And we disagree over the cause of the trouble because I believe it was US/Nato plans of expanision right from the beginning. I find it strange that I have to reiterate that. And of course I understand your position.

I don't know what "expanision" is.

[GostHacked]

I don't know what "expanision" is.

I think you do know what it means in this context.

[jbg]

I think you do know what it means in this context.

I always like to learn new words. Also if I respect a poster I point out the typos (if they are typos rather than words with which I am not familiar) privately. On the other hand, there are posters who don't offer that opportunity, by rejecting private messages.

[GostHacked]

I always like to learn new words. Also if I respect a poster I point out the typos (if they are typos rather than words with which I am not familiar) privately. On the other hand, there are posters who don't offer that opportunity, by rejecting private messages.

'Expansion' is not a new word, and you are simply playing dumb as to the context in which it is being used here.

[monty16]

'Expansion' is not a new word, and you are simply playing dumb as to the context in which it is being used here.

I wouldn't say that Shady is playing dumb, he may truly not understand that sort of big words if English is not his first language. I didn't explain it because I didn't want to find out. I had made my point.

[GostHacked]

I wouldn't say that Shady is playing dumb, he may truly not understand that sort of big words if English is not his first language. I didn't explain it because I didn't want to find out. I had made my point.

My reply was to JBG not Shady.

[monty16]

My reply was to JBG not Shady.

Yeah, I was just about to correct it. I get the two confused for some reason?

[monty16]

RT's perspective on Poroshenko. Well worth reading because we aren't going to get much else from the Western media.

http://rt.com/op-edge/161688-ukraine-president-poroshenko-military-operation/

Sounds like he either changed his mind about dialogue with Russia or he's under political pressure to not talk to Russia. The people of the Ukraine are going to suffer and be held hostage to US/Nato ambitions. This is no surprise as it's nothing new.

[jbg]

'Expansion' is not a new word, and you are simply playing dumb as to the context in which it is being used here.

He wrote "expanision" and not "expansion." I thought it was setting up an exposition similar to Expo 67.

[monty16]

He wrote "expanision" and not "expansion." I thought it was setting up an exposition similar to Expo 67.

When you see a misspelled word it's always better to try to interpret what the word means rather than waste the time of everyone and disrupt the forum. You seem to like doing that quite a lot lately so I'll ask you what your purpose here is? Was it not obvious what I meant when I said expanision? Are you going to continue with this sort of behaviour? If so then I think I'll have to start reporting you for uh, do they call it trolling or something like that?

[jbg]

When you see a misspelled word it's always better to try to interpret what the word means rather than waste the time of everyone and disrupt the forum. You seem to like doing that quite a lot lately so I'll ask you what your purpose here is? Was it not obvious what I meant when I said expanision? Are you going to continue with this sort of behaviour? If so then I think I'll have to start reporting you for uh, do they call it trolling or something like that?

When I fix a misspelled word in a quote of yours, you accuse me of "adding to your quote." I am not trying to troll or annoy, but I find your disparagement of typo correction inside quotes to leave me with little alternative but to ask for an explanation.

Do you not admit that you have complained on that subject?

[dre]

Your position is and has always been blatantly dishonest. What you are doing is attempting to equate a free western press, which, for all its many flaws, is as honest and active, overall, in finding and exposing governmental crimes and incompetence, and the overall truth, as it can be given the economics of the medium, with Russian propaganda that is no different than it was during Stalin's time.

That position is laughable and appallingly ignorant, and the only reason for raising it is to act as a counter to those criticizing Putin, in order to defend Putin, in other words.

Again youre having an argument with an imaginary voice in your head. I dont see any reason to get involved. And I didnt equate Western press with the press in Russia either... again maybe an imaginary voice in your head did, but Im fine with just backing off and letting you talk to yourself.

[Merkuri]

Civilian casualties of the war.

Road to Donetsk Airport after Ukrainian military attack:

[Argus]

Civilian casualties of the war.

Road to Donetsk Airport after Ukrainian military attack:

So how do we know they were civilians, and how do we know they weren't murdered by the Russian thugs who have set up so many road blocks? We don't, of course. And nobody with more than half a brain would believe anything coming from the Russians.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Argus

[GostHacked]

So how do we know they were civilians, and how do we know they weren't murdered by the Russian thugs who have set up so many road blocks? We don't, of course. And nobody with more than half a brain would believe anything coming from the Russians.

1 - They could be civilians (military wears a uniform)

2 - They could be 'freedom fighters' or 'rebels' or 'insurgents' or 'terrorists'

If the military on either side is not wearing a uniform then, that goes against some Geneva conventions (like they really f'n matter in war) and they would be called 'enemy combatants'.

The situation at Donetsk has been reported on a few sites. And what ever happened, there, you now have dead people lying in the streets.

[-TSS-]

One sentence: Russians are inveterate liars therefore nothing coming from their information-sources should be given a second look.

[eyeball]

Russians in general or just greedy big shots and government officials? Surely most like us, are just regular folks trying to survive in a world run by power greedy big shots and inveterate politicians.