Big Guy Posted May 12, 2014 Report Posted May 12, 2014 This is pretty basic stuff you should have learned in grade school. That kind of response undermines any sense of credibility of position. It is also an obvious attempt to demean the individual posting an opinion. It is a tactic used by those more concerned with creating a conflict than attempting to discuss an issue. I have been around long enough to not take that kind of bait and am disappointed that someone who has shown some knowledge in other posts would stoop to a tactic that not only does not add to the discussion but invites someone to go off topic and start trading personal invectives. I am surprised and disappointed. Please save those types of tactics for those who choose to trade personal insults. I am not one of them. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Wayward Son Posted May 12, 2014 Report Posted May 12, 2014 No, the Western media doesn't have to recognize it and apparently hasn't. But their silence doesn't play well for them while it does play well for the other side as it's indicative of the people's preference. I am not sure what silence you are talking about. Did RT tell you there was a Western media silence? Every major newspaper has highlighted the results of these complete farce referendums. Why Hold Ukraine Referendums The World Knows are Shams? Rebel's Referendum Claims deepen country's inner turmoil Ukraine Referendum has Zero Credibility Ukraine Denounces Pro-Russian Referendums Ukraine Separatists Ask to Join Russia Eastern Ukrainians Vote for Self-Rule in referendum opposed by West Pro-Russian Separatists Set for victory in Eastern region referendum Tens of thousands vote in regional referendum dubbed a criminal farce organised by Russia Quote
eyeball Posted May 12, 2014 Report Posted May 12, 2014 Legal or illegal, it is a statement for the world on just what is going on in the Ukraine and with US/Nato expansion plans. What's going on in the Ukraine is the same thing going on everywhere around the planet, repositioning and the dance of oligarchs. The only difference between the east and west is the tempo and the number of dancers. There's fewer getting richer faster in the east but the west's make up the difference by dealing with the east's, squirrelling away their ill-gotten gains - quid pro quo. Oligarchs are to democracy as theists are to atheism - they may disagree on their individual means but their ends, dollars, rubles or hryvnias as the case may be, are basically all the same. For good reason. For one thing he wants the sanctions eased, especially if his own overseas wealth is frozen. For another these are apparently areas that would be logistically difficult to rule, and quite poor. I think he wants a bigger slice of Ukraine rather than these two alleged "People's Republics." I'm sure they'd all rather this just go away, freezing Putin's and his cronies and peer's assets must be hurting our financial sector which is a situation I can't imagine will last long. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Big Guy Posted May 12, 2014 Report Posted May 12, 2014 Good point. As long as someone is democratically elected that person should be able to steal every speck of wealth in the country, and do what ever they want. The people can then vote for a new leader to govern whatever is left of their country the next election. Shame on the population of Ukraine for thinking they matter in between casting votes at elections. Personally, I have no idea why Viktor Yanukovych did what he did. I also do not understand why the people of the old Ukraine elected him to office - but they did. Yes, those people in the North and West decided that he did not fulfill his campaign promises and went the other route - but they elected him. Some democracies have a recall process but I understand that Ukraine does not. Either you follow your democratically created constitution or accept that others are also allowed to cherry pick the law of your land. We have another situation in the West where the leader is absent and the majority do not want him back - Toronto. But he is still the mayor. Alas. It looks like the legality of referendum and the results of voting depend if the good guys win or the bad guys win. How is this coming May 25 election going to be considered "legitimate"? What candidate will those in Crimea going to vote for? What kind of voting will take place in those areas that are being held by the insurgents or pro-Russians or nationalists or terrorists or whatever? Will the results of that election be "valid"? What is the possible solution in Ukraine so that people stop killing each other? Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Wayward Son Posted May 12, 2014 Report Posted May 12, 2014 (edited) Personally, I have no idea why Viktor Yanukovych did what he did. I also do not understand why the people of the old Ukraine elected him to office - but they did. Yes, those people in the North and West decided that he did not fulfill his campaign promises and went the other route - but they elected him. Some democracies have a recall process but I understand that Ukraine does not. Either you follow your democratically created constitution or accept that others are also allowed to cherry pick the law of your land. We have another situation in the West where the leader is absent and the majority do not want him back - Toronto. But he is still the mayor. Alas. It looks like the legality of referendum and the results of voting depend if the good guys win or the bad guys win. How is this coming May 25 election going to be considered "legitimate"? What candidate will those in Crimea going to vote for? What kind of voting will take place in those areas that are being held by the insurgents or pro-Russians or nationalists or terrorists or whatever? Will the results of that election be "valid"? What is the possible solution in Ukraine so that people stop killing each other? Perhaps the people (predominantly in the east) voted for him because it was before he showed just how completely corrupt and criminal he is. His own party completely disowned him, stating they: "strongly condemn the criminal orders that led to human victims, an empty state treasury, huge debts, shame before the eyes of the Ukrainian people and the entire world." He had completely lost the support of parliament. He fled the country to avoid dealing with the consequences of his crimes and theft which occurred on an unprecedented scale. This was not an unconstitutional coup. This was a leader of the state leaving on his own accord so he would not face the consequences of his actions - consequences that would have likely left him in prison for the rest of his life. Quit defending this criminal by pretending that people of Ukraine have to just put up with the crimes being perpetrated against them because he was elected. They were protesting, as was their right, and they were gaining power and influence to the point that Yanukovych understood that he was no longer above the law, and instead of facing the laws of his country, and the people of his country, he left with the billions of dollars he and his son stole. As to your next statement I am not going to bother answer why the legality of a referendum has nothing to do with who won or lost. If you fail to understand why this referendum was a farce, then you can't be helped and you are not worth my time. Edited May 12, 2014 by Wayward Son Quote
monty16 Posted May 12, 2014 Report Posted May 12, 2014 You do realize that these two referendums were not in Crimea, right? And they did not happen two months ago...when your piece is dated... Oh well, in that case the Western media has been silent on it. Guilt complex? Ordered by the gestapo to remain quiet? We'll have to accept RT's word on it I guess until they get over it. Quote
monty16 Posted May 12, 2014 Report Posted May 12, 2014 http://rt.com/news/158436-donetsk-republic-ask-join-russia/ The people ask for their right to succeed. Will the US/Nato respect their rights? Quote
monty16 Posted May 13, 2014 Report Posted May 13, 2014 You can't use RT as evidence of that. Well let's get something straight right now smallc. I can use whatever source I choose to use and you dont' have the authority to tell me otherwise. If you can't find a source to challenge RT then that's your problem to deal with. Stop trying to dictate the terms of this forum's behaviour to me. Right now! Quote
ASIP Posted May 13, 2014 Report Posted May 13, 2014 (edited) The Crimea referendum set the bar in the Crimea and the US/Nato has pretty well run out of talking points on that one haven't they. These so called referenda set bar only for how primitive Russia propaganda is. RT is reporting that both Donetsk and Lugansk regions have voted about 90% in favour of self rule in their referendum. They also report a 75% turnout in both regions. RT is a Russia's propaganda machine. It is physically impossible to vote for more than 100,000 people in those conditions. Any person can do the math. Results of this so called referendum are senseless. This is a farce. Or circus. Edited May 13, 2014 by ASIP Quote
Big Guy Posted May 13, 2014 Report Posted May 13, 2014 Results of this so called referendum are senseless. This is a farce. Or circus. I do not disagree. This referendum took place without outside supervision and the validity depends on which side of the issue one is on. A referendum must be considered valid by all sides for it to be an acceptable reflection of local views. Just how "valid" is the May 25th election going to be? How are the wishes of those in the Crimea going to be evaluated - or is Crimea no longer being contested. How are the wishes of those in the East and South where bullets are flying going to be evaluated? That is what I alluded to earlier. Crimea is now part of Russia - full stop. There are oblasts in which a large percentage of people do not trust what is happening in Kiev and want no part of that election. I believe that the new Ukraine will include a partitioned area where there is a buffer between the Russian Crimea and the pro-Kiev North. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Big Guy Posted May 13, 2014 Report Posted May 13, 2014 As to your next statement I am not going to bother answer why the legality of a referendum has nothing to do with who won or lost. If you fail to understand why this referendum was a farce, then you can't be helped and you are not worth my time. Thank you for your insight and taking the time to respond. You have unique and courageous points of view - thanks for sharing. I assume that you will not respond to my opinions in the future. That is unfortunate since the concept of discussion is not to try to change another persons view but to compare your own view to that of others. I will probably be the worse for your lack of critical disagreement. I still feel that it is not a waste of time in responding to your postings and believe that to be worth my time. As to who is correct in their assessment of conditions on the ground and the final result, I submit that only time will tell. I am looking forward to that time. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Argus Posted May 13, 2014 Report Posted May 13, 2014 (edited) I think you need to stay on the topic and stop the personal attack against me. NOW! So you're going to ignore the clear results of my referendum!? Edited May 13, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted May 13, 2014 Report Posted May 13, 2014 Well let's get something straight right now smallc. I can use whatever source I choose to use Sure, but what are you doing here with it? Are you trying to convince anyone of the validity of your argument? Because I assure you citing Russia's propaganda ministry is not going to accomplish anything but make you look like you don't know anything about the world. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted May 13, 2014 Report Posted May 13, 2014 That kind of response undermines any sense of credibility of position. It is also an obvious attempt to demean the individual posting an opinion. It is a tactic used by those more concerned with creating a conflict than attempting to discuss an issue. I have been around long enough to not take that kind of bait and am disappointed that someone who has shown some knowledge in other posts would stoop to a tactic that not only does not add to the discussion but invites someone to go off topic and start trading personal invectives. I am surprised and disappointed. Please save those types of tactics for those who choose to trade personal insults. I am not one of them. My pointing out that you seem to be ignoring how parliamentary government works - which you certainly ought to know - is not a personal insult. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Smallc Posted May 13, 2014 Report Posted May 13, 2014 Well let's get something straight right now smallc. I can use whatever source I choose to use and you dont' have the authority to tell me otherwise. If you can't find a source to challenge RT then that's your problem to deal with. Stop trying to dictate the terms of this forum's behaviour to me. Right now! I'm trying to tell you that if you want anyone to take you seriously, you'd better find a more credible source. Quote
Big Guy Posted May 13, 2014 Report Posted May 13, 2014 Russian state-controlled gas company Gazprom has reiterated its threat to stop supplying Ukraine with gas if it does not pay in advance for June deliveries, Russian news agencies reported on Monday. "If Ukraine does not pay for June supplies, Gazprom will, by 10am on June 3, inform the Ukrainian side what amount of gas will be supplied in accordance with the pre-payment," Itar-Tass quoted Miller as saying. He said the amount of gas to be supplied would be zero if no payment is made. Gazprom has promised to stop supplying Ukraine with gas if it does not pay in advance for June deliveries. Where is Ukraine going to get those $billions it already owes Russia for gas? If the EU decides to loan Ukraine any money will that money then go to Russia? What happens if/when Russia turns off the gas tap to Ukraine? Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
monty16 Posted May 13, 2014 Report Posted May 13, 2014 I do not disagree. This referendum took place without outside supervision and the validity depends on which side of the issue one is on. A referendum must be considered valid by all sides for it to be an acceptable reflection of local views. Just how "valid" is the May 25th election going to be? How are the wishes of those in the Crimea going to be evaluated - or is Crimea no longer being contested. How are the wishes of those in the East and South where bullets are flying going to be evaluated? That is what I alluded to earlier. Crimea is now part of Russia - full stop. There are oblasts in which a large percentage of people do not trust what is happening in Kiev and want no part of that election. I believe that the new Ukraine will include a partitioned area where there is a buffer between the Russian Crimea and the pro-Kiev North. Sorry big guy but there were 23 countries sent observers. The news you watched lied about it. And if you didn't watch KCTS, I did and they lied too about there being no observers. Quote
monty16 Posted May 13, 2014 Report Posted May 13, 2014 I'm trying to tell you that if you want anyone to take you seriously, you'd better find a more credible source. And I'm going to try to tell 'you' that US news is not reliable or credible. Ask any American and they will tell you that. American A will tell you that Fox News is not credible and American B will tell you that MSNBC is not credible. Say it ain't so! Then there's CNN and CBS and they've become the laughing stocks of the news world for their respective lying and getting caught. Take it all with a grain of salt, even RT, but at least supply some source to say it was fixed. Or don't because the perception has been spread out there and not even the US networks are saying that the vote wasn't conclusively pro-Russia. In fact KCTS talking head US propagandists actually said that only 30% voted and the 70% who didn't were anti-Russia. Yup, they really did! That even made the announcer do a double take! Quote
monty16 Posted May 13, 2014 Report Posted May 13, 2014 http://rt.com/op-edge/158416-eastern-ukraine-referendum-expressing-will/ Just an expression of the intent of the people of the Southern and Eastern Ukraine. I wonder, could we expect something that classy from Rachel Maddow or Bill O'Reilly? LOL Quote
Argus Posted May 13, 2014 Report Posted May 13, 2014 And I'm going to try to tell 'you' that US news is not reliable or credible. There is a world of news out there, and while individual independent news agencies sometimes err, you can fairly easily see that the competition of the whole keeps the parts relatively in line in terms of actual news reporting. CBS or CNN might make occasional mistakes, but they don't make up news nor alter it. RT is not, of course, part of that world. It is not a news organization. It is a propaganda outlet for an autocratic government and will always say only and exactly what that government wants it to say. Anyone who refuse to acknowledge the difference loses all credibility in terms of judgement and intelligence. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
monty16 Posted May 13, 2014 Report Posted May 13, 2014 The problem with US news and to some extent Canadian news as well is that they never have anyone telling the other side of the story. If a news announcer assembles a panel it's rare that you will see somebody expressing the other side's POV. Situations where that happens we find ourselves getting into US led wars such as the phony Iraq war which perhaps could have been avoided had the people had access to the truth. And the Iraq war is only one of many wars that the US has started for various immoral and illegal reasons. How could anyone dispute that at this late date? And consequently, regardless of the barrage of propaganda and misinformation the American people are starting to dig in their heels a bit. They are still firmly of the opinion that they don't want their military anywhere near the Ukraine meddling in their business. The results of the recent referendums in the Ukraine is going to resonate with the American people for that very reason. It's plainly evident to them now that the people don't want separation from the rest of the Ukraine, they want what Putin clearly wants. The former status quo situation where neither the West (US/Nato) is trying to advance and Russia has no interest in advancing either. Even though the American people have to do some footwork to search out the real truth of what the mainstream should be telling them as an option, along with the US/Nato propaganda. If the dead hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians were sacrificed for any reason, it would have to be that their lives were lost in order to teach us a lesson. Never again! But alas, the power of the propaganda is difficult to match by peaceloving people of the world. Quote
GostHacked Posted May 13, 2014 Author Report Posted May 13, 2014 There is a world of news out there, and while individual independent news agencies sometimes err, you can fairly easily see that the competition of the whole keeps the parts relatively in line in terms of actual news reporting. CBS or CNN might make occasional mistakes, but they don't make up news nor alter it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CNN_controversies Quote
monty16 Posted May 13, 2014 Report Posted May 13, 2014 GostHacked, it doesn't get any easier to blow out of the water than that post! http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=cnn+lied&qpvt=cnn+lied&FORM=VDRE And gone are the days of the really, really big whoppers when the minister of propaganda's wife, Christiane Amanpour, was spoon feeding it in their leadup to war in Iraq. That was when they didn't even make an honest attempt to hide it! Quote
Big Guy Posted May 13, 2014 Report Posted May 13, 2014 And gone are the days of the really, really big whoppers when the minister of propaganda's wife, Christiane Amanpour, was spoon feeding it in their leadup to war in Iraq. That was when they didn't even make an honest attempt to hide it! I think it has always been thus. I remember watching that old TVO panel discussion as part of Studio Two, made up of Janet Stein, Peter Gwynn and Eric Margolis when the Canadian involvement in Afghanistan was just beginning. Janet and Peter generally followed the American spin but Margolis would go his own route stating his opinion. The other panelists and moderator would squirm as Eric would spout his anti involvement views, activities on the ground and warnings of the catastrophe to come. Eric was the only one with intimate knowledge of the Middle East and had actually met and interviewed Osama. Unfortunately, his minority opinion was so contrary to all the other things we were hearing from Afghanistan and Iraq that he was often dismissed as “quirky” and pro-Taliban by many. Eventually he was elbowed out as viewers were very uncomfortable with his views especially after the body bags started coming home. Eric was absolutely correct in his analysis and warnings. His 2008 book, “American Raj – Liberation or Domination” was criticized at the time but is now accepted by many as the most comprehensive explanation of Middle East values, culture and driving forces. I have been very sceptical of Western media coverage since that time. Just because most media outlets sell the same story does not mean that it is true. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
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