Ukraine crisis

[ASIP]

Interesting and I believe impartial opinion at:

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/05/ukraine-lies-propaganda-west-age-20145384527678726.html

In a certain sense it is interesting, however one key point is distorted: NATO's promise not to expand on East. This is just Russian propaganda.

[-TSS-]

There could not possible be a binding promise by a supra-national organisation like NATO not to expand eastwards. It is sheer nonsense to claim that could be possible. Therefore the Russians have shown their true colours once again in this propaganda-war.

[Big Guy]

I take western news sources with a pinch of salt. I take Russian sources like RT as flat out government propaganda which deserve far more skepticism than a pinch of salt.

I have an interest in this issue and check on the progress daily. I start with Al Jazerra which gets the info first because of time lines:

http://www.aljazeera.com/

Then I check out KyivPost for the Ukrainian approach.;

http://www.kyivpost.com/

Then I give the Russian view a read at;

http://english.pravda.ru/

I will then check with the European look at Reuters;

http://www.reuters.com/

Finally I will read what the Economist has to say;

http://www.economist.com/

Since I have found the Economist to be the most impartial publication I then compare my analysis to theirs to try to decide on the truth of what has occurred.

It is difficult to get to the facts of what is really happening.

[Wayward Son]

In a certain sense it is interesting, however one key point is distorted: NATO's promise not to expand on East. This is just Russian propaganda.

Yes, I find the Western promise not to expand eastward to be pure nonsense. At best (in turns of being favorable to Russia) a couple of Western representatives offered that up as part of negotiations, which Gorbachev said he would have to think about, and then months later when the negotiations were finalized it appeared no where in print, despite Gorbachev's insistence that everything else be well documented. At worst, Gorbachev is simply lying to save face for an outcome that he (and most other people) did not anticipate.

The part that I find most distasteful from leftists who keep bringing this point up (and I say that as a left-winger myself) is when they bring this so-called promise up to chastise the West for breaking it, is that even if were true - since when would be ok for the US and Russia to make decisions about what other countries are allowed to do with their own foreign policy?

[GostHacked]

The part that I find most distasteful from leftists who keep bringing this point up (and I say that as a left-winger myself) is when they bring this so-called promise up to chastise the West for breaking it, is that even if were true - since when would be ok for the US and Russia to make decisions about what other countries are allowed to do with their own foreign policy?

I has not been ok. For either side, but it does happen. An agreement into an entity like NATO will allow the bigger players to influence our own foreign policy here at home in Canada. It's been happening for decades really.

[iolo]

The attempt f the West to colonise the Ukraine by overthrowing the elected government is going to be a complete flop. What is wrong with these nutters?

[Shady]

The attempt f the West to colonise the Ukraine by overthrowing the elected government is going to be a complete flop. What is wrong with these nutters?

It's the opposite. Russia is trying to bring back Ukraine under its control.

[GostHacked]

It's the opposite. Russia is trying to bring back Ukraine under its control.

It was under Soviet control before. A cold war and a huge effort by the west to bring Ukraine into it's sphere of influence is now having that influence moved back to Russia. Ukraine was not the only one, every break away state off the Soviet Union was courted by the west.

It would be like having someone else influence a province here in Canada to break away and then Canada taking it back.

[Shady]

It was under Soviet control before. A cold war and a huge effort by the west to bring Ukraine into it's sphere of influence is now having that influence moved back to Russia. Ukraine was not the only one, every break away state off the Soviet Union was courted by the west.It would be like having someone else influence a province here in Canada to break away and then Canada taking it back.

No, it wouldn't be like that at all. There's a reason why it was called the iron curtain that required literal walls. But keep going to bat for repressive regimes. It's amusing.

[dre]

No, it wouldn't be like that at all. There's a reason why it was called the iron curtain that required literal walls. But keep going to bat for repressive regimes. It's amusing.

Keep failing to even achieve grade 3 level reading and comprehension. Thats pretty funny too!

[Shady]

Keep failing to even achieve grade 3 level reading and comprehension. Thats pretty funny too!

Please refrain from personal insults. They're against forum rules.

[dre]

Please refrain from personal insults. They're against forum rules.

Its not an insult at all. You make a concious choice to respond to posts before you even understand what they say. You have reading comprehenion issues, and I just pointed that out to you. Its not an insult to tell a person who doesnt read well, that they dont read well.

[GostHacked]

No, it wouldn't be like that at all. There's a reason why it was called the iron curtain that required literal walls. But keep going to bat for repressive regimes. It's amusing.

The only literal wall that existed from my knowledge is the Berlin Wall dividing East and West Germany now a unified Germany again for over two decades now. That dates back to WWII.

So who is going to bat for Russia and Putin again? Can you be specific with details outlining your theory?

But your overall statement has little to do with what I had posted.

[Shady]

The only literal wall that existed from my knowledge is the Berlin Wall dividing East and West Germany now a unified Germany again for over two decades now. That dates back to WWII.So who is going to bat for Russia and Putin again? Can you be specific with details outlining your theory?But your overall statement has little to do with what I had posted.

Right. So one could freely leave the Soviet Union?

[Big Guy]

Right. So one could freely leave the Soviet Union?

The following might shed some info;

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/nov/14/world/la-fg-russia-emigration-20111115

[jbg]

The only literal wall that existed from my knowledge is the Berlin Wall dividing East and West Germany now a unified Germany again for over two decades now. That dates back to WWII.

No. It went up in 1962.

[monty16]

Unlike the Iraq war where we had Chretien seeing the façade the US had set up, this time we have Harper at the wheel and he's not going to disappoint the US for any reason. Canada will join the US in it's plans to further encroach on Russia.

After all the US aggression since they got the opportunity with the fall of the Soviet Union, it should be difficult to be taken in again for Canadians who look into what's going on in the Ukraine. Alas, not so for many as the US/Nato propaganda sweeps them along!

[GostHacked]

No. It went up in 1962.

Looks like you are correct on the date. And there are no other physical walls that were built that I know of.

[monty16]

It was predictable even during the Olympics that the US/Nato was itching for trouble with Russia. The hate rhetoric during the games should have warned everyone. It was as if the cold war was still going on and there was a real reason to hate Russia. All they could muster up was the gay issue and even the US hawks got on that bandwagon against their own personal interests.

[jbg]

Looks like you are correct on the date. And there are no other physical walls that were built that I know of.

Dogs, guards, arrests and shootings did work quite well. It was more of a "curtain" to quote Churchill than a wall.

[Wayward Son]

Looks like you are correct on the date. And there are no other physical walls that were built that I know of.

No walls, but some of the tall heavily barbed-wire fences with watchtowers (such as in Czechoslovakia) would have been just as difficult to escape through.

Edit: See the third last picture here for an example.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Wayward Son

[GostHacked]

No walls, but some of the tall heavily barbed-wire fences with watchtowers (such as in Czechoslovakia) would have been just as difficult to escape through.

Good point.

[monty16]

Does the Berlin wall have anything more to do with the Ukraine than the Israeli apartheid wall does?

It seems that US/Nato progress will be stalled if the people come out in force for a referendum and it shows that indeed the South and East Ukraine are similar to Crimea in their wishes to side with Russia.

[jbg]

Does the Berlin wall have anything more to do with the Ukraine than the Israeli apartheid wall does?

(This part of post deleted. Not part of warning but in the spirit of eliminating personal insults I am deleting this and other posts.).

Let's start with the "apartheid wall" garbage. Arabs live, work and vote on both sides of the wall. It is not an apartheid wall. It is a walldesigned to make it harder for someone to take himself to Allah along with large numbers of unwilling and helpless co-venturers. Next wopper is Ukraine. The Russians have been notorious, in the past, on emigration control. Inevitably history will repeat itself on this score since whoever rules Russia/USSR at any given point makes themselves a major exporter of people. Unfortunately for them its the motivated and intelligent people that leave, not the vodka-fueled idlers.

It seems that US/Nato progress will be stalled if the people come out in force for a referendum and it shows that indeed the South and East Ukraine are similar to Crimea in their wishes to side with Russia.

When the "referendums" provide as choices only the options of being a non-viable independent state or rejoining Russia there's little to guess how the referendum will go. Add the option of staying with Ukraine and the outcome goes into doubt. No wonder the Crimean "referendum" was "Soviet-style democracy." Edited May 12, 2014 by jbg

[monty16]

Hey right on! JBG I knew it sounded familiar! If you want to talk about the Jews' apartheid wall then start a thread on it and I'll be there happily.

And as with Kosovo that has now become the Clinton presidency's expansion plans, the Bush2 presidency expansion plans in Iraq has erased all the illusions that were attempted by the US sympathizers. The US has had a heyday since the fall of the Soviet Union and right up unitl now as the Russians are putting the brakes on again.

So let's start by comparing the Crimean referendum and the democratic choice of the people. Bloodless I might add, to the US style of bringing it's 'democracy to Iraq! Something to do with WMD's wasn't it?

Then we could go on to talk about the string of US wars since the world's loss of an equalizing nuclear force that kept things in moderation.

The Russians are coming, the Russians are coming! Soon!