Ukraine crisis

[ASIP]

The Crimea was Russian, and is inhabited by Russians. If you try to organise a fascist putsch in another country's sphere of interest, better make sure you have the fire-power to back your bullying.

Stop spreading myths.

Crimea was Ukrainian. It is inhabited by many nationalities. Russian are invaders there and do not represent overwhelming majority. Many Crimean Russians are Ukrainian patriots.

There was no coup in Ukraine. The government is the same as it has been for several years. The only event happened, the President fled the country and is in hiding. The speaker of the parliament is now an interim president until duly performed election.

The international community has no problem with recognition of Crimea as a part of the Ukrainian state.

[Rue]

I believe it was 1774 The Tartars in Crimea who had majority control gained their independence from the Ottoman Empire after a war between the Ottoman Empire and Russia. It was then annexed by Russia in 1783.During WW2 Stalin perceived the Tartars as being pro Nazi as was the case with many other Ukrainians and so he tried to purge the area of them or what some call ethnic cleansing. The tensions between Russia and Ukraine certainly did not start during WW2 but the mass starvation of Ukrainians by Stalin has to have, from a purely psychological perspective, pushed all other issues in past history to a second level. The sheer number of Ukrainians starved has created a collective memory that will be passed on in all Ukrainians. It won't disappear. Its too profound an existential wound to Ukrainians. It has become entrenched in the very fabric of their culture for better or worse.

Russia can claim Catherine the Great annexed the Ukraine or refer to majority Russians in Crimea but the point is it was never geographically Russian originally and while the borders and movement of various ethnic peoples has changed of course, the impact of the starvation campaign changes everything.

The Soviet Union was able to control the Ukraine through an elaborate state police apparatus and troops on the ground. Ukrainians never identified as Soviets unless they were Russian ethnics.

People forget the Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Czechs, Slovaks, Germans, Poles, all may have been occupied by Russia but none of them unless they were ethnic Russian identified as Russians and those who joined the Soviet controlled communist parties and police networks in their countries to this day were never respected by their people. They could repress the ethnic identities and cultural identities of their own people on behalf of the Russians but those identities never ceased to exist. They simply went underground and when the Soviet Empire collapsed those identities had no forced agent repressing them and simply resurfaced.

Putin is in a dangerous game of wanting to show the West he can rebuild the Soviet Empire and that hhe is a tough guy so when they deal with him on gas and oil prices to behave. He overplayed his hand.

All he has done is unite East Europe and all the former Warsaw Pact nations and they will turn even closer to the West.

For those who believe Putin is simply standing up to the West he is not. This is partially about his being tough guy to negotiate future oil and gas prices but its a message to the former Eastern Warsaw pact nations to get back in line and they will not.

The days of sending troops in to occupy countries and set up police networks to control peoples' thoughts won't work. The internet makes that problematic unless you want to invade a remote nation like Tibet that shunned modern technology.

Ukrainian history is too lengthy and complex in nature to be simplified as it is by the press today. Long before Kruschev got drunk and made some deal to allegedly give back Crimea to the Ukraine it never stopped being part of the Ukraine. Catherine the Great not with standing Ukrainians never were nor will they ever call themselves Russians whether they lived in Crimea which was always part of the Ukraine or when it became Russian.

[dre]

Stop spreading myths.

Crimea was Ukrainian. It is inhabited by many nationalities. Russian are invaders there and do not represent overwhelming majority. Many Crimean Russians are Ukrainian patriots.

There was no coup in Ukraine. The government is the same as it has been for several years. The only event happened, the President fled the country and is in hiding. The speaker of the parliament is now an interim president until duly performed election.

The international community has no problem with recognition of Crimea as a part of the Ukrainian state.

Actually by virtually every account coming from everywhere the majority of Crimeans are Russian. More than half of them self identify as Russia, and an even larger majority speak Russian at home.

And there was a coup... the president didnt just leave the country, armed factions started taking over government buildings and he was forced out.

And the international communition should recognize Crimea how every Crimeans want to the be recognized. And it really doesnt matter what the US, or the UN, or NATO thinks anyways because they are toothless and morally bankrupt paper tigers that will whine and snivel and shoot their mouths off and do nothing substantive at all to back it up.

[dre]

But it's not the same thing. Why are you and others being obtuse? Is it deliberate? Iraq wasn't invaded to be annexed. It wasn't invaded to be kept at all. It was a continuation of a string of events going back many years, mostly starting with Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, it's subsequent defeat, and post-defeat agreed upon obligations, which it violated too many times to count. Money and lives were poured into Iraq to help it at some point, stand on it's own, as an independent country, free of dictatorship.

Putin's crimea land grab is the complete opposite. But as a proud member of the "blame the West, make excuses for the rest" club, I fully expect you not to acknowledge any of the differences. Just as the other members of the club have.refused to do so.

You are right that its not the same thing. Russia marched into an area mostly populated by Russians in an almost completely bloodless coup. The US rained down thousands of cruise missiles on cities packed full of people before a single boot hit the ground. More innocent people in Iraq died in the first 3 seconds of invasion then have died during the entire event in Crimea.

In Iraq western countries got hundreds of thousands of people killed, set up torture prisons, and engaged in the wholesale slaughter of civilians, and then fill the country with private security contractors that killed for fun and sport.

And folks like you stained their shorts with glee watching the wholesale slaughter of Iraqis... And now suddenly you are absolutely beside yourself with outrage. You shouldnt be suprised that people are laughing at you now.

[dre]

The two situations aren't similar at all. At least if any real critical thinking is done.

Yes thats true... The US sent hundreds of cruise missiles in ahead of them, and bombed the living shit out of a city full of civilians (shock and awe LOL). And they got hundreds of thousands of innocent people killed, and set up torture prisons. The Russians rolled into an area thats predominantly Russian and has been since the 1700's in an incursion that was almost bloodless.

So there definatly is a difference. You finally got something right!

[bush_cheney2004]

...The US rained down thousands of cruise missiles on cities packed full of people before a single boot hit the ground.

Errr...no, wrong on both counts. The U.S. did not "rain down thousands"...more like 750...and not always on cities. The U.S. Navy fired it's 2,000th cruise missile as of 2011, which includes Canada's last "human rights" picnic in Libya. The U.S. also had advanced teams on the ground before the invasion of Iraq in 2003. No such missiles have been fired during the "Ukraine crisis".

Edited March 30, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[WWWTT]

Errr...no, wrong on both counts. The U.S. did not "rain down thousands"...more like 750...and not always on cities. The U.S. Navy fired it's 2,000th cruise missile as of 2011, which includes Canada's last "human rights" picnic in Libya. The U.S. also had advanced teams on the ground before the invasion of Iraq in 2003. No such missiles have been fired during the "Ukraine crisis".

Are you including the first gulf war?

After all, dre was responding to Shady's comment of the Iraqi string of events.

Shady was implying the Hussein's involvement of the first Iraqi war.

Come to think of it, Hussein's rise to power in the late 70's was backed by the US and was just one freekin war after the other!

You conveniently forgot about the chemical weapons (or the very least the ingredients) were given to Iraq by guess who?

Yes very different from the Crimean now over crisis!

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

P.S. please provide the link that backs up your claim next time, or we'll brush off your comment as an exaggeration!

WWWTT

[Argus]

The Crimeans want to re-join Russia, to which they have always belonged. Do all you strange persons worship Kruschev? Why, for goodness sake?

How would you know what the Crimeans want? Do you live there?

[Argus]

No... Unlike you Im pretty consistant in my opposition to the use off non-defensive military force.

And yet, you've voiced no such opposition to Russia invading Ukraine, only argued against those who did. Curious, that.

I simpliy mocked the faux outrage from western powers that are fresh off invading a country, setting up torture prisons, and getting hundreds of thousands of people killed.

Yes, yes, we know. The West is the pit of evil and hell on earth. Oh if only you could run it the way you want! Why, once the labour camps got done re-educating everyone (and killing those who disagreed) life would be a paradise!

[GostHacked]

And the international communition should recognize Crimea how every Crimeans want to the be recognized. And it really doesnt matter what the US, or the UN, or NATO thinks anyways because they are toothless and morally bankrupt paper tigers that will whine and snivel and shoot their mouths off and do nothing substantive at all to back it up.

This is true. NATO can pick on smaller countries without getting much of a bloody nose. But if they take on Russia, then things are going to really hurt. And this is the reason we wont see any action by NATO to push Russia out of Ukraine or Crimea.

[Argus]

Actually by virtually every account coming from everywhere the majority of Crimeans are Russian. More than half of them self identify as Russia, and an even larger majority speak Russian at home.

The majority of Crimeans are Russian speaking. There is a difference. The place has been part of Ukraine for longer than most people have been alive.

And to repeat, if there was really confidence in how people felt, there would have been a question on the 'referendum' asking if people wanted to stay a part of Ukraine. That there was no such option made available should be enough to show anyone that the question would not have been a sure thing if people really had a choice.

And there was a coup... the president didnt just leave the country, armed factions started taking over government buildings and he was forced out.

The president lost the support of parliament after he started killing large numbers of people, and parliament, the elected parliament, forced him out. This was a parlimant in which his own party had the majority of the votes, by the way.

[GostHacked]

But it's not the same thing. Why are you and others being obtuse? Is it deliberate? Iraq wasn't invaded to be annexed.

Not physically, but economically. Forcing Iraq to use the petrodollar. it was and still is about oil and money in Iraq.

Putin's crimea land grab is the complete opposite. But as a proud member of the "blame the West, make excuses for the rest" club, I fully expect you not to acknowledge any of the differences. Just as the other members of the club have.refused to do so.

First off, not one person here supports the Russian invasion of Crimea. But some posters are not being hypocritical by calling out Putin, while not calling out Bush/Obama or vise versa. The invasion of Crimea was wrong, and the invasion of Iraq was wrong.

Edited March 30, 2014 by GostHacked

[Argus]

Yes thats true... The US sent hundreds of cruise missiles in ahead of them, and bombed the living shit out of a city full of civilians (shock and awe LOL). And they got hundreds of thousands of innocent people killed, and set up torture prisons. The Russians rolled into an area thats predominantly Russian and has been since the 1700's in an incursion that was almost bloodless.

So there definatly is a difference. You finally got something right!

Why, dre is right! I see the light now! Hitler wasn't a bad fellow at all when he marched into the Sudedtenland! He was a fine fellow when he moved into Austria! There were German speakers in Czechoslovakia!

But those filthy allies, raining bombs down on German cities, they were much worse!

[GostHacked]

And yet, you've voiced no such opposition to Russia invading Ukraine, only argued against those who did. Curious, that.

Dre mentioned several times that he was against the invasion. Why do you need to be corrected on this matter so many times?

[Argus]

First off, not one person here supports the Russian invasion of Crimea. But some posters are not being hypocritical by calling out Putin, while not calling out Bush/Obama or vise versa. The invasion of Crimea was wrong, and the invasion of Iraq was wrong

So invading democratic nations is the same as invading brutal dictatorships? There's no difference?

And you support brutal dictatorships, right? I mean, you don't believe anything should be done to topple them.

Edited March 30, 2014 by Argus

[Argus]

Dre mentioned several times that he was against the invasion. Why do you need to be corrected on this matter so many times?

Cite?

[bush_cheney2004]

Are you including the first gulf war?

After all, dre was responding to Shady's comment of the Iraqi string of events.

Shady was implying the Hussein's involvement of the first Iraqi war.

Come to think of it, Hussein's rise to power in the late 70's was backed by the US and was just one freekin war after the other!

You conveniently forgot about the chemical weapons (or the very least the ingredients) were given to Iraq by guess who?

Yes very different from the Crimean now over crisis!

Yes...and you are way off topic. Start another Iraq thread if you wish to discuss such things, so I can point out Canada's complicity in bombing the locals across the sea .

[ASIP]

Actually by virtually every account coming from everywhere the majority of Crimeans are Russian. More than half of them self identify as Russia, and an even larger majority speak Russian at home.

It seems you cannot comprehend a logical notion that being a Ukrainian Russian does not necessarily means wanting to live in Russia.

Do 100% of French speaking people in Quebec want separation?

42% of Crimean population are not Russian. That's a lot.

And there was a coup... the president didnt just leave the country, armed factions started taking over government buildings and he was forced out.

Not true.

The president fled the country in the middle of negotiations. Nobody expected that. Nobody tried to stop him (he fled in the middle of the night with a large convoy). After leaving Kiev he stayed in the country for two or three days. His personal safety was guaranteed by at least words of European participants of the negotiations. He was not forced out. A date for a new presidential election was set for late fall. He simply fled as a thief.

No government buildings were taken over by protesters. They took only a couple of floors in an office building, called the Trade-Union Building and arranged a rest area and a kind of hospital there.

And the international communition should recognize Crimea how every Crimeans want to the be recognized. And it really doesnt matter what the US, or the UN, or NATO thinks anyways because they are toothless and morally bankrupt paper tigers that will whine and snivel and shoot their mouths off and do nothing substantive at all to back it up.

You have no idea what every Crimean wants. The results of the so-called referendum simply cannot be verified. There are indications they were fabricated.

And, contrary to you, the international community understands this.

[ASIP]

The majority of Crimeans are Russian speaking. There is a difference. The place has been part of Ukraine for longer than most people have been alive.

And to repeat, if there was really confidence in how people felt, there would have been a question on the 'referendum' asking if people wanted to stay a part of Ukraine. That there was no such option made available should be enough to show anyone that the question would not have been a sure thing if people really had a choice.

Good point!

Add that UN and all international organizations that monitor elections were forbidden to enter Crimea. And hundreds of Russian soldiers with loaded rifles and machine guns in the streets.

The president lost the support of parliament after he started killing large numbers of people, and parliament, the elected parliament, forced him out. This was a parlimant in which his own party had the majority of the votes, by the way.

I have to correct you.

The parliament could not force him out, otherwise it would has been done long before. And yes, his party has majority. Yanukovich knew that well and behaved defiantly towards the parliament. The negotiations (Ukrainian opposition+Yanukovich+Russia+EU) about his resignation had lasted for some time. After mass killings in Maidan, he agreed - not to step down - for a new presidential election near the year end, after the country would return to the constitution of 2004, which he unilaterally changed. This constitution has powers of the president and parliament balanced.

Suddenly, in the middle of negotiation he disappeared. Rather then invoking impeachment, the parliament used other clause of the constitution to terminate his presidency - "not being able to perform duty of the president." The speaker of the parliament assumed duties as an interim president. A new presidential elections were called as soon as possible - in three months (one can compare to less than two weeks of the Crimean so called referendum).

Now Russia claims the Ukrainian parliament violated the agreement and the government is illegitimate. Needless to say that the Russian representative did not sign the agreement of 21 February, which Russia insists must be obeyed.

Edited March 30, 2014 by ASIP

[WWWTT]

Yes...and you are way off topic. Start another Iraq thread if you wish to discuss such things, so I can point out Canada's complicity in bombing the locals across the sea .

You had no problem in throwing out the number before.

But now that your number is being challenged you won't because this isn't an "Iraqi" thread?

And how Canada became involved in this is more of the same old bc poor debate tactic/style we have seen in the past!

Iraq was mentioned as a comparison to Crimea, and you tried to diminish the comparison by throwing out un substantiated numbers!

Back up your numbers or we can only conclude that you are fabricating!

WWWTT

[bush_cheney2004]

....Back up your numbers or we can only conclude that you are fabricating!

Conclude whatever you wish...you are often wrong about such things. Canada didn't mind when the U.S attacked Serbia with over 300 cruise missiles so CF-188's could bomb targets with impunity, and loved loved loved US/UK cruise missile attacks on Paul Martin's Libya for the same reason. See how this game is played ? Got anything to say about the "Ukraine Crisis" ?

[Eugene]

The Great Depression in Ukraine is due to radicals in power. Yes, we are in Ukraine in Great Depression. I mean we are depressed and our economy is doing very badly. And who's to blame? They are not only our richmen (oligarchs) we call them who are busy stuffing their own pockets with money. Western democracies made their contribution into it as well!
I ask you, why are they pushing our radicals nationalists from the western regions of Ukraine into power structures in Kiiv? They are all mostly criminals, robbing people in streets and in trains and in their houses even! Come into this city Vinnitsa and see with your own eyes. They may demand you to repair their car or give them meat or chicken on the market or even some shop without paying any money at all! Everybody is scared to oppose this practice. Sick and tired of this already!!!
I know that in many other Ukrainian districts it's the same practice. And when they get real official power what should we expect of them?
Want go to Canada where there are hell of Ukrainians they say. No nationalistic elements I hope.

[Topaz]

I really wonder if NATO is ready for WW3 if they keep pushing the Russians. I'm not saying what Russia has done is right or wrong but what would the reaction to the leaders of NATO be , if they had the same situation? It's getting to appear that these "invasion" "conflicts" "wars" have more to do with natural resources and replacing leaders who are "more" friendly to NATO countries. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26830336

[WWWTT]

I really wonder if NATO is ready for WW3 if they keep pushing the Russians. I'm not saying what Russia has done is right or wrong but what would the reaction to the leaders of NATO be , if they had the same situation? It's getting to appear that these "invasion" "conflicts" "wars" have more to do with natural resources and replacing leaders who are "more" friendly to NATO countries. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26830336

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Please check your link.

Either way, I think you're right with the comment.

WWWTT