The truth about Israel's secret nuclear arsenal

[Guest Derek L]

http://www.nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/

Try it out on Vancouver...Hiroshima vs say...a 1 megaton warhead.

That's neat.......I wonder how accurate the deaths and injures calculation is though? Tried the crude terrorist weapon with my wife’s office in the downtown core as ground zero and then again at BC Place……looks like that detonation’s report would make the News Hour…….Then tried the Chinese 5 Mt airburst….Seems we’d be getting a bit of a tan out here in Coquitlam….

[Rue]

Hudson Jones latest exercise presuming to know what young Jews believe about Israel once again shows how he uses the pretext of criticizing Israeli state policies to make comments about Jews not Israel and to presume he canspeak on our behalf and tell us how we feel about ourselves.

This is the same person who presumed to tell me I am being "tribal" because I am a Jew who believes in expressing that identity through a nationalist collective.

What would people say if he took the exact same approach to black people? If I said to a black man, you are being tribal when you define yourself as a people from Africa what would you think? Are gays tribal because they formed a collective to be proud of their identity? Would he call a gay person tribal for referring to gays as belong to a gay nation?.

Imagine him saying to black people, well you know, young blacks don't think of themselves as African its just those older blacks that do young blacks reject their roots and the persecution that happened to them and why they liberated themselves.

Would he write a post saying Muslims are too tribal because they have Sharia law states?

Imagine him saying to blacks, you know a good black doesn't think he should be recognized as being a person of African heritage.

Hudson Jones' posts I would contend are classic anti-Semitism. They don't criticize Israeli state policies they question and presume to tell us Jews how we should perceive our identity, how we should feel, what we should aspire to be and that presumption I argue necessarily comes about from the notion he can patronize us, put us in our place. Its a classic example of someone who talks down to another people..

This is why I challenge his statements. I again contend he has used the pretext of criticizing Israeli state policies to talk down to Jews as a people and challenge the very way we define ourselves. That is not a discussion on Israel, that is a discussion from a gentile telling Jews what their place is.

I contend it is precisely the kind of bigotry Jews reject as anti-Semitism, no different tha blacks rejected, gays rejected, women rejected.

I would contend when you are born in a world of privilege, where you take your ethnicity for granted because no one questions it and when you live in a world where you live in freedom free of persecution you can become blinded by the presumptions of your privilege to think anyone not like you needs to have a place below yours. I would contend for Hudson Jones to lack the insight that his posts show he tries to lecture Jews on how we should perceive our place in this world comes from that kind of privilege bias.

I can tell you thin, young or old, we Jews are like any of you on this forum, when someone presumes to tell us how to think, what we must believe in, how we must behave, we understand such a person to be a presumptious bigot and in our history it led to thousands of years of mass death culminating in a holocaust.

This is precisely why we started a country and will never again allow anyone to tell us our place., not as a second class Jew who can not own property, not as a Jew imprisoned in ghettoes or stacked in rotting piles. not as a khafir or a dhimmi.

Our place is a nation among nations and never again will people dictate to us our place. We now will control our own destiny and I summarize my comments with this last point, will the same Hudson Jones who speaks on behalf of young Jews also presume to speak for the same young people who are not Jews brought up today to believe the holocaust never happened and that we Jews had nothing better to do than invade Palestine.

Does this same Hudson Jones who presumes to know what is good for young Jews speak of the young who do not know the history of Jews and are being brought up to hate all Jews and Israelis and justify hating one because they hate the other?

Of course not.

Imagine a thread allegedly about Israel's nuclear arsenal and one again its hijacked to question not Israeli state policies but the right of Jews to exist as an equal among equals, a nation among nations.

Not one thread on Israel that does not lower itself to questioning Jews for being a collective. Not one.

Edited February 2, 2014 by Rue

[DogOnPorch]

That's neat.......I wonder how accurate the deaths and injures calculation is though? Tried the crude terrorist weapon with my wife’s office in the downtown core as ground zero and then again at BC Place……looks like that detonation’s report would make the News Hour…….Then tried the Chinese 5 Mt airburst….Seems we’d be getting a bit of a tan out here in Coquitlam….

The 3D version is pretty cool, too. It uses things like Google Earth traffic, etc to get its figures, I believe. It does show that H-Bombs are nothing to be messed with...a 1mt ground burst on Vancouver would fry Kelowna if the winds were blowing that direction. Five megatons...well...now there's a big bang. The mushroom cloud could be seen crawling over the horizon 500 miles away.

http://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap3d/

Uses Google Earth plug-in.

Edited February 2, 2014 by DogOnPorch

[GostHacked]

I enjoy it when people that abhor violence from others and yet post things like the nuke map and other military hardware and talk about the probable death toll.

[Guest Derek L]

I enjoy it when people that abhor violence from others and yet post things like the nuke map and other military hardware and talk about the probable death toll.

Don't fret......With a single Iranian IRBM, with six 10 kt MIRVs, strategically placed within the center of Tel Aviv, you could easily cook 2 million plus Zionists....

[GostHacked]

Don't fret......With a single Iranian IRBM, with six 10 kt MIRVs, strategically placed within the center of Tel Aviv, you could easily cook 2 million plus Zionists....

That's like a 1/3 Hitler.

[Guest Derek L]

That's like a 1/3 Hitler.

Sure, but only requiring 15-20 minutes....

[GostHacked]

Sure, but only requiring 15-20 minutes....

If you are going to kill on a mass scale, might as well be efficient about it.

[DogOnPorch]

I enjoy it when people that abhor violence from others and yet post things like the nuke map and other military hardware and talk about the probable death toll.

You don't have the Google Earth plug-in? Get it here.

http://www.google.com/earth/explore/products/plugin.html

[Guest Derek L]

If you are going to kill on a mass scale, might as well be efficient about it.

I’m sure Reinhard Heydrich’s mind would be blown.....Of course the IDF's countervalue, second strike would ensure that Farsi is no longer spoken within the glass parking lot formerly known as Iran.

[DogOnPorch]

If you are going to kill on a mass scale, might as well be efficient about it.

Yes...yes...you're a saint. We're monsters.

[Guest Derek L]

Yes...yes...you're a saint. We're monsters.

I wouldn't go that far...are we not discussing Israeli, and in turn, (the potential of) Iranian nuclear weapons? Of course the topic is unsettling, nuclear war isn’t suppose to be pleasant, and the day that it does become a feel-good topic, is the day we’re all in trouble….

Seriously though, the younger generation doesn’t know how good they’ve got it.

[DogOnPorch]

Threads also portrayed nuclear war with disturbing realism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MCbTvoNrAg

[bud]

Well stated.

Another shift, which has many hawkish ZIonists, like Alan Dershowitz worried, are the younger Jewish population living outside of Israel. They can no longer relate to Israel because the Zionist policies contradict many liberal values. The big Zionist PR machine can no longer mask and stop the flow of information. The information is more easily available for people to see the atrocities that Israel continues to commit. The young Jewish population is speaking out more and more against Israel's policies as are politicians and major media outlets.

this reminded me of an article i read, which has hardcore zionists trembling:

Why Fewer Young American Jews Share Their Parents’ View of Israel

“I’m trembling,” my mother says when I tell her I’m working on an article about how younger and older American Jews are reacting differently to the Palestinians’ bid for statehood at the United Nations. I understand the frustrations of the Palestinians who are dealing with ongoing Israeli settlement construction and sympathize with their decision to approach the U.N., but my mom supports President Obama’s promise to wield the U.S. veto, sharing his view that a two-state solution can be achieved only through negotiations with Israel.

“This is so emotional,” she says as we cautiously discuss our difference of opinion. “It makes me feel absolutely terrible when you stridently voice criticisms of Israel.”

i wonder if the movement is also making some people here tremble because it's obvious that there is a gradual shift of how the young jewish population view israel's policies. there are articles after articles, written by jews, discussing this, yet, people like rue would rather brush it aside as nothing:

Are young American liberal Jews ashamed of Israel?

Another rabbi laments young American Jews’ ‘alienation’ and ‘anger’ re the country they should love

Poll shows young American Jews losing connection to Israel

[Guest Derek L]

this reminded me of an article i read, which has hardcore zionists trembling:

Why Fewer Young American Jews Share Their Parents’ View of Israel

“I’m trembling,” my mother says when I tell her I’m working on an article about how younger and older American Jews are reacting differently to the Palestinians’ bid for statehood at the United Nations. I understand the frustrations of the Palestinians who are dealing with ongoing Israeli settlement construction and sympathize with their decision to approach the U.N., but my mom supports President Obama’s promise to wield the U.S. veto, sharing his view that a two-state solution can be achieved only through negotiations with Israel.

“This is so emotional,” she says as we cautiously discuss our difference of opinion. “It makes me feel absolutely terrible when you stridently voice criticisms of Israel.”

i wonder if the movement is also making some people here tremble because it's obvious that there is a gradual shift of how the young jewish population view israel's policies. there are articles after articles, written by jews, discussing this, yet, people like rue would rather brush it aside as nothing:

Are young American liberal Jews ashamed of Israel?

Another rabbi laments young American Jews’ ‘alienation’ and ‘anger’ re the country they should love

Poll shows young American Jews losing connection to Israel

Funny that......The Obama administration isn’t deploying BMD capable ships to the region to fend off the Jew….

[DogOnPorch]

Funny that......The Obama administration isn’t deploying BMD capable ships to the region to fend off the Jew….

Funny that there's never any 'revisionist history' about the Battle of Midway. There's no physical proof it actually happened.

[Rue]

If you are going to kill on a mass scale, might as well be efficient about it.

Then use anthrax and place them in the missile head. Far cheaper and deadlier. Better still send one suicide chemical carrier in and have him release it in the water supply.

It is absolutely how frighteningly easy it is to mass kill.

I prefer not to dwell on that. What I would contend is we try learn from the holocaust or the millions Stalin or Mao killed or the nuclear bombs of Hiroshima as to how we can prevent these things from happening again.

Its why I embrace the creators of the holocaust museum in Washington. As you walk out the door, they talk of hope and faith in the midst of sheer despair. The voices urge people to reach deep inside to find the good within them.

I prefer messages that appeal to our faith in life, not our preoccupation for killing each other.

[Rue]

this reminded me of an article i read, which has hardcore zionists trembling:

It could be these Zionists had Parkinson's disease. Let's not get too carried away.

[Hudson Jones]

It could be these Zionists had Parkinson's disease. Let's not get too carried away.

That made me chuckle.

However, in all seriousness, the relationship between Israel and Palestinians is viewed differently than previous generations, by the average young Jew outside of Israel.

The BDS movement and the resistance from Jews who refuse to accept Israel's policies are the driving force behind the pressure on the establishment in Israel to change their policy against those they are occupying.

[Bonam]

That made me chuckle.

However, in all seriousness, the relationship between Israel and Palestinians is viewed differently than previous generations, by the average young Jew outside of Israel.

Jews in the Western world are assimilating, due to the terrible discrimination that had kept them isolated for thousands of years becoming relatively less prevalent over the last several decades. As such, it is to be expected that the views of young Jews on foreign policy would reflect the same kinds of diverse viewpoints as the population at large. Few people are surprised when young Russian kids in the US and Canada don't support Russia's government, or young Chinese people China's, or young British kids Britain's. Jews a few decades ago had a deeper connection with Israel, today, that connection is not present among most young Jews in Western countries, and it has nothing to do with Israel's actions but simply with the fact that Jews, like most other cultures (or perhaps even more than most) are assimilating into Western societies and becoming no different than your typical American or Canadian.

[DogOnPorch]

Being Jewish doesn't make one an automatic expert on the Arab-Israeli conflict. Nor does it make one's opinion more valid on the subject than somebody who isn't Jewish. What the Arabs did...choosing war over peace...three times, at least...was simply wrong by any sane person's standards. It's also wrong to toss the blame for Arab failure in Israel's lap. Need I point out had the Arabs won any of those gambits they took vs Israel, there would likely have been a slaughter and I doubt there would be any call for justice...whatever that is...re: Israel disappearing from the map.

[Rue]

Porch you still do not get it so I will try explain it again. Criticizing Israeli state policies is anyone's right of course.

Presuming to tell me as a Jew what is good for me is another. There is a huge difference between discussing and criticizing Israeli state policies and telling me as a Jew what is good for me. Read back the posts I am challenging please. Try for once imagine what it is like to have someone lecture you that you are too tribal or ultra nationalistic because you think your people have a right to exist in their own state. There is a huge difference and the alleged discussion on Israeli state policies is not that at all-its about lecturing Jews they should not have a country and telling Jews that Jews are only good when we don't think we have a right to a country.

You want to knock yourself out criticizing Israeli state policies go ahead. Tell me as a Jew what is good for me, pose quotes depicting what a good Jew is as opposed to a bad one, then its no longer a discussion on Israeli state policies, it is in fact just an exercise in telling Jews we do not belong in the Middle East and we do not belong as a nation among nations.

That is no longer Israeli state policy criticism.

No one has the right to presume to tell anyone how to express their identity. That is precisely what this thread in my opinion was hijacked to do. Its not a discussion on nuclear arsenal but on why Jews think we have the right to exist in a country and its why Hudson Jones referred to Israel as a cancer on this forum at one point and why he and Bud engage in the exercise of propping what a good Jew's opinion should be.

Have you ever seen me come on this forum and talk about Palestinians that way? Be fair. Have I come on this forum quoting Palestinians saying they should give up the right of a state? Why would I? How does that contribute to discussions?

You and I have zero disagreement on what basic and bloody fact and that is no nation in the world should have nuclear weapons. No good of course can come from them.

No in an ideal world Israel should not have them but to present it as simply a pretense to once again attack the concept of Zionism is pointless.

[Rue]

Hudson Jones the opposition in Israel to its state policies happens daily. I am not sure why you think BDS is the only opposition movement. It certainly seems stated that way. I really do not think you have a clue what goes on in Israeli politics and I will state why. If you did you would realize Israeli state policies are criticized with every breath of every Israeli every hour of the day. its part of the Israeli psyche.

This is a country where debate goes on 24 hours a day and where the party lines in politics mean not a thing. Just within the Likud party there are hundreds of factions. Parties come and go in coalitions. The press, the tv, the radio lambast the government. There are hundreds of civil rights groups in court contesting laws. Where have you been that you only select out BDS?

I challenge you because you cherry pick those groups you think agree with your take on Israel and ignore the rest. Why?

You ever bothered to speak to the Jews you now claim to understand and what they are criticizing? You even know?

You even know what it is like to volunteer and dig toilets, peel potatoes, bring medical supplies to Palestinians on behalf of Israeli charities?

I do and I do precisely because I am a Zionist. I was taught it meant finding peace with Arabs not hating them.

You do not know why people like me and the younger people behind me and above me are not the stereotypes you depict us as or select out as thinking agree with you and are therefore acceptable to you.

This is not what you think about Jews and what their opinions are. You are not a Jew do not presume to think you are in the tone of your responses. You can't any more than you can claim you know the same about Palestinians.

We will find peace but it will come at a time and place when both peoples can speak to each other directly.

The time is not there. Hamas and the majority of PA will not and can not accept Israel as a Jewish state. They will not give up that dream to never take back Israel and until they do all the rest is just dialogue and you can bad mouth any Jew who believes he has the right to live in a state as being some evil demon Zionist but we are not and it does not mean we want to fight and hurt Palestinians.

You do not know what it is like to have a gun pointed at your head. You don't know what it is like to run into a kid carrying a nail bomb and who trips and for some miracle he did not blow up and take you with him. You don't know the sight of body parts going into plastic bags after a terrorist attack-but that is what you presume in your words when you think you talk for Jews.

You want to criticize Israeli state policies go ahead but stop referring to Jews, stop referring to us as a people you understand and can lecture to.

Talk about the issues not us.

Understand something. The presumption you use that you know what Jews should think and where their place is-that is the fuel, that is the very root of anti-Semitism-the presumption you are on a higher plane and can judge and dictate as to where we should live and who we should aspire to be,

We have had thousands of years of people just like you doing the same. Its precisely why we had to start a country and precisely why people like me defend Israel and tell you don't presume you know me. Don't presume you know why Jews did what we did to survive. You don't.

[Hudson Jones]

Jews in the Western world are assimilating, due to the terrible discrimination that had kept them isolated for thousands of years becoming relatively less prevalent over the last several decades. As such, it is to be expected that the views of young Jews on foreign policy would reflect the same kinds of diverse viewpoints as the population at large. Few people are surprised when young Russian kids in the US and Canada don't support Russia's government, or young Chinese people China's, or young British kids Britain's. Jews a few decades ago had a deeper connection with Israel, today, that connection is not present among most young Jews in Western countries, and it has nothing to do with Israel's actions but simply with the fact that Jews, like most other cultures (or perhaps even more than most) are assimilating into Western societies and becoming no different than your typical American or Canadian.

Isn't it great?

The sooner that religion and nationalism is defeated and the sooner a humanist approach is taken to how we treat each other, the better.

[jbg]

zionist apologists talk about "singling out israel" when it comes to its violations of international law. any time there is criticism of israel, this particular card is pulled out more often than the others in order to curb and stop legitimate criticism of israel.

an article in the guardian, was a reminder of the hypocrisy of the zionist/colonialist approach to debate on world politics and the western stance on different issues:

Does Israel behead people on Youtube?