Neil Young rocks the tar sands

waldo · January 27, 2014

I took the liberty (for the sake of this thread) to correct a few errors in your statement above and replace them with the proper words.

no - you took the liberty of changing the quote to cover-up your playing of both sides... covering up you tripped over yourself, that you contradicted yourself. Any doofus can change a quote!

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It is my multi-national business experience that taught me to never pass up the opportunity for a meeting. I guess they don't teach you any of that stuff down at Overwaitea.

clearly, a meet&greet, dog&pony show, called ad-hoc by one side, called with no prep/lead time/agreed to agenda, called within the confines of a heavily politicized and media fueled/charged environment, on the "home grounds" of one side... without all stakeholders involved... clearly, that reads as a meeting being crafted for a one-sided self-promotion or being setup for failure. Failure, clearly your kind of business!

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waldo · January 27, 2014

I thought I would bump this forward since you want to avoid it.

Even Jacee realizes how naive and uninformed Neil Young is. Yikes....looks like you are all alone on this one waldo.

I'm not avoiding anything... how insecure and desperate are you to have to even presume to play board members off each other? Is Mr. Young anything more, anything other, than a celebrity playing off his celebrity status to attempt to influence, to attempt to contribute?

Accountability Now · January 27, 2014

no - you took the liberty of changing the quote to cover-up your playing of both sides... covering up you tripped over yourself, that you contradicted yourself. Any doofus can change a quote!

LOL!!!!!! This is hilarious. I'm playing both sides? I am perfectly happy with the expansion of the oil sands. Always have been and always will be.

Neil Young, on the other hand, first says its like Hiroshima and there is no land left to develop BUT NOW says its ok as long as its slower development??? Will this stop the noxious fumes that he described in Washington? Will this stop it from turning Alberta into the moon?

Give it up waldo....you're reaching really bad on this one.

clearly, a meet&greet, dog&pony show, called ad-hoc by one side, called with no prep/lead time/agreed to agenda, called within the confines of a heavily politicized and media fueled/charged environment, on the "home grounds" of one side... without all stakeholders involved... clearly, that reads as a meeting being crafted for a one-sided self-promotion or being setup for failure. Failure, clearly your kind of business!

Yes....let's talk about fair shall we....

The singer did not accept an invitation from Canada's oil and gas industry lobby group to meet before Sunday's show. The Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers issued a statement Sunday saying it offered to "have a balanced discussion," but a representative of Young and Athabasca Chipewyan First Nation Chief Allan Adam offered an alternative that was unacceptable, CAPP said.

"Young’s representative suggested oilsands producers participate in Neil Young’s media conference today, but when CAPP requested a neutral moderator and equal representation, the organizer said this was not acceptable," the CAPP statement said.

I guess it is one sided!!

Accountability Now · January 27, 2014

I'm not avoiding anything... how insecure and desperate are you to have to even presume to play board members off each other? Is Mr. Young anything more, anything other, than a celebrity playing off his celebrity status to attempt to influence, to attempt to contribute?

Pointing out the obvious....that is help that you clearly need.

Now are you saying that Mr Young should NOT be listened to?

waldo · January 27, 2014

LOL!!!!!! This is hilarious. I'm playing both sides?

yes - it is heeelarious you are playing both sides of how you're presenting (rather, misrepresenting), First Nation peoples. Based on your own words/references/quotes from those references you're totally contradicting yourself. Again, really, you need to pick one of these... make up your mind:

- is it, First Nation peoples want to stop development, outright?... or

- is it, First Nation peoples want full speed ahead, no holds-barred, unlimited, unrestricted development, so long as treaties are honoured?

again, pick one... make up your mind! :lol:

I guess it is one sided!!

imagine that, a format CAPP industry also didn't like! Kind of takes the shine off your earlier criticism, hey? Keep that kind of information coming, hey?

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waldo · January 27, 2014

Pointing out the obvious....that is help that you clearly need.

no - you clearly revel in attempting to have other members engage in discussing points (you presume) they don't agree on. You want to attempt to stir the pot and you do so, quite obviously, because you lack self-confidence in your own positions and you are most insecure in your own arguments.

jacee · January 28, 2014

for what any leveraged celebrity can bring forward, Ms. Hannah is not some 'Darryl come lately'... she has a long standing presence through years of climate change related protests.

Yes I know. I'm afraid my slam was more a personal envy ... joke.

My bad.

bush_cheney2004 · January 28, 2014

Pretty funny "joke"...see if you can spot her in this ad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gGRETZfTKP4

Accountability Now · January 28, 2014

yes - it is heeelarious you are playing both sides of how you're presenting (rather, misrepresenting), First Nation peoples. Based on your own words/references/quotes from those references you're totally contradicting yourself. Again, really, you need to pick one of these... make up your mind:

- is it, First Nation peoples want to stop development, outright?... or

- is it, First Nation peoples want full speed ahead, no holds-barred, unlimited, unrestricted development, so long as treaties are honoured?

again, pick one... make up your mind!
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I know that this is your only place to converse with people...I get that....but you really do have to stop making shit up just to carry on a conversation. I've already shown the hypocrisy involved so if the issue is that you don't know what that word means then I suggest you ask your 18 year old shift supervisor.

imagine that, a format CAPP industry also didn't like! Kind of takes the shine off your earlier criticism, hey? Keep that kind of information coming, hey?

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Those bastards at the CAPP! Wanting a neutral moderator and fair representation!!! How dare they!!!

Accountability Now · January 28, 2014

no - you clearly revel in attempting to have other members engage in discussing points (you presume) they don't agree on. You want to attempt to stir the pot and you do so, quite obviously, because you lack self-confidence in your own positions and you are most insecure in your own arguments.

I didn't presume anything. I quoted Jacee's exact words. Do you have an issue with her statements or not?

jacee · January 28, 2014

Yes...I have seen your challenges. It has been pointed out by two other MLW members how quickly you pull out the race card if you don't like what you are hearing.

I don't like hearing negative generalizations against racial/cultural groups it's true, and when they're repeated ad nauseam I'll call it what it is.

As for challenges, you seem to respond to posts you want but then totally avoid the ones you don't. You never did respond to Bogues or myself regarding the so called rascist allegation over taking money versus the environment.

Yes I did ... see "generalization".

You never did respond to my Globe and Mail article regarding Neil Young's backpedal on oil sands development if the treaties are honored. And I posted it twice....the second one specifically at your request.

Yes I did ... twice. See "Neil ... naive".

You ask people to discuss issues respectfully yet you have no idea on how to do it yourself.

See "ad nauseam" above.

I believe it is respectful to point out to someone when their negative generalizations slide into racism ... in case they're legitimately unaware.

I made a statement about native groups saying that they claim to push the environmental issues but once the money comes in, then these issues don't rank as high as money. And low and behold, on the very Neil Young thread we are discussing this on....it turns out this is the very case with the Athabasca Chipewyan group. In addition to that group you have many other native people in Alberta that are benefiting immensely from these 'dangerous' oil sands. I am all for responsibly developing the oilsands waldo is suggesting but you can't sit and bash the oil sands when you're not getting the money and then say well...its ok to develop (rapidly or responsibly) as long as we get our share.

Don't conflate what Neil Young and David Suzuki said with where Chipewyan people stand, and accuse the latter for the former. As I said, I think Neil went into this somewhat naively without understanding some things well, and he's since been 'schooled' in their realities of environmental concerns, right to revenue sharing and need for jobs and training.

Skirted? Not even close....I outright told you that my issue here has NOTHING to do with whether they deserve it or not. Why would we talk about it if it has NOTHING to do with it. Unlike you I actually respond to the posts.

As for starting a new thread....go ahead if you want. I'll participate. Having said that, I have already been through this with you on the First Nation Patience Waning Thread and other native threads. If you have something new to bring up then go for it. I trust others will be happy to participate too.

Obviously whether one believes they "deserve" revenue sharing does have something to do with your denigrating Indigenous Peoples' positions on oil sands development, or you wouldn't have mentioned it at all.

If that's your real issue, you should be up front about it, and not hide it behind Neil Young.

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Edited January 28, 2014 by jacee

waldo · January 28, 2014

I'm guessing your buds in produce must love that one.

I guess they don't teach you any of that stuff down at Overwaitea.

I know that this is your only place to converse with people...I get that....I suggest you ask your 18 year old shift supervisor.

just how old are you? :lol:

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waldo · January 28, 2014

Those bastards at the CAPP! Wanting a neutral moderator and fair representation!!! How dare they!!!

let's recap: notwithstanding my earlier comments concerning my view on the futility of a meeting...

- first industry CAPP asks Mr. Young to meet with them prior to his Calgary concert. For whatever reasons (reasons I've not read conveyed), Mr. Young refused that meeting. I'll speculate it might have been because Mr. Young wanted First Nations participation at that meeting... which dovetails with the follow-up meeting proposal where, in turn:

- Athabasca Chipewyan First Nation Chief Allan Adam proposed a meeting that we read CAPP claimed was "unacceptable" to it; and finally:

- we had Mr. Young invite CAPP industry representatives to a press conference he was holding... and, as we read, CAPP didn't like the format of the press conference.

but, of course, we certainly saw CAPP take the opportunity with a media blitz to highlight Mr. Young refused their initial "oliv branch". And, of course, we certainly read you trying to make something of that initial meeting with these following posts of yours, all while you make light of CAPP actually turning down 2 other proposed meetings/get together's: H Y P O C R I T E

Why did they not meet with industry execs? They would have all the audience they need....but no.

WHY did they avoid the opportunity to meet with the oil industry execs if they wanted support a slower expansion rather than rapid? Why would you NOT take that opportunity?

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Keepitsimple · January 28, 2014

Pretty funny "joke"...see if you can spot her in this ad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gGRETZfTKP4

Another "ad" from Tom Steyer.....he's an American billionaire - one of the driving financial forces behind Barack Obama and someone who has thrown millions towards anti-Keystone and anti Oil-Sands projects. Pretty disgusting how a handful of rich Americans can distort everything from Presidential elections to energy policies.Pretty convenient how his target is Canada - and not the dirty coal mines of America that generate 40% of their power.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Keepitsimple

eyeball · January 28, 2014

Pretty disgusting how a handful of rich Americans can distort everything from Presidential elections to energy policies.

There's a lot of that going on alright, throughout the economy.

Any ideas on what to do about it?

waldo · January 28, 2014

Another "ad" from Tom Steyer.....he's an American billionaire - one of the driving financial forces behind Barack Obama and someone who has thrown millions towards anti-Keystone and anti Oil-Sands projects. Pretty disgusting how a handful of rich Americans can distort everything from Presidential elections to energy policies.Pretty convenient how his target is Canada - and not the dirty coal mines of America that generate 40% of their power.

Steyer is a relative lightweight (net worth $1.4 billion)... given the significantly greater funding levels, why aren't you railing against the Koch Brothers/Donors Trust and their funding for Climate Change Denial groups/TeaParty candidates/ALEC/etc.? Just how selective are you Simple, and what drives your selectivity?

don't fret! Steyer's NextGen is a key/prime funder for many U.S. Pacs involved in the, "War on Coal"... one of the more notable efforts involving a Washington State Pacs campaign against a proposed coal terminal intended to ship U.S. western state coal to Asia.

although a distraction for this thread, as for the video itself, have you no comment on it highlighting the U.S. just doesn't need the Keystone pipeline... notwithstanding, of course, the tarsands sludge was always intended for Gulf Coast refineries/Asian export... and not the U.S. domestic market.

Keepitsimple · January 28, 2014

There's a lot of that going on alright, throughout the economy.

Any ideas on what to do about it?

Not a clue....the US is a completely different beast than Canada.

Accountability Now · January 28, 2014

let's recap: notwithstanding my earlier comments concerning my view on the futility of a meeting...

- first industry CAPP asks Mr. Young to meet with them prior to his Calgary concert. For whatever reasons (reasons I've not read conveyed), Mr. Young refused that meeting. I'll speculate it might have been because Mr. Young wanted First Nations participation at that meeting... which dovetails with the follow-up meeting proposal where, in turn:

- Athabasca Chipewyan First Nation Chief Allan Adam proposed a meeting that we read CAPP claimed was "unacceptable" to it; and finally:

- we had Mr. Young invite CAPP industry representatives to a press conference he was holding... and, as we read, CAPP didn't like the format of the press conference.

but, of course, we certainly saw CAPP take the opportunity with a media blitz to highlight Mr. Young refused their initial "oliv branch". And, of course, we certainly read you trying to make something of that initial meeting with these following posts of yours, all while you make light of CAPP actually turning down 2 other proposed meetings/get together's: H Y P O C R I T E

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Again...you continue to make stuff up and for the same purpose.

CAPP offered to meet with Neil Young and Allan Adam before the show. THEY declined and in turn offered to have that meeting at their press conference. CAPP said they would attend IF they were given FAIR representation and a NEUTRAL moderator was present. David Suzuki was the 'neutral' moderator proposed by the Young/Adam side which of course is as neutral as haveing Ezra Levant moderate. There weren't two other proposed meetings. It was an intial offer and a counter offer with of course the counter offer being a sham offer considering their biased moderator.

bush_cheney2004 · January 28, 2014

.....Pretty convenient how his target is Canada - and not the dirty coal mines of America that generate 40% of their power.

Canada's (actually Alberta's) bitumen mining and dilbit transport via pipeline to the U.S. are just pawns in a domestic policy battle. President Obama has already broken the hearts of "progressives" on many other issues. It's fun to watch this game play out.

waldo · January 28, 2014

no - what I've read has the First Nation chief proposing beyond the immediacy/timeline of that Calgary concert... a meeting intent that pulls in those missing stakeholders I spoke of earlier (i.e., government officials) - you know, something about a 'treaties concern'. But yes, the referenced CAPP "unacceptable" should have been with respect to the presser,... but c'mon, what would be wrong with having the eminent Order of Canada recipient, David Suzuki, moderate a presser? What ever would CAPP be afraid of?

Not a clue....the US is a completely different beast than Canada.

Simple! That you should be so automatic, so 'matter-of-fact" in your expectations that the U.S. should simply get in line and comply with a Canadian industry/Harper Conservative KXL pipeline want, the U.S. just not need it. Again, notwithstanding this leg of KXL/tarsands output isn't/was never intended for the U.S. domestic market:

- given shale oil, there's a huge glut of oil in the U.S. right now, and

- with U.S. consumption significantly down from past recent years (given shifts to gas), and

- with U.S. domestic oil production nearing all time record levels, that over-supply is expected to remain for some period of time/years, and

- additionally, some of those Gulf Coast refineries that spent huge money re-tooling their infrastructure to refine heavy tarsands sludge have shifted that back to handle light crude... and, of course,

- rail transport of oil is greater than ever.

kind of makes a NO decision easy for Obama to convey to the American public, particularly if that China tarsands investment & Asian export angle is played up more in the lead-up to a decision. That's an Obama decision that won't be coming before the end of the year (before the 2014 mid-term elections)... no matter how hard Baird/Harper posture/"huff&puff" and say they won't accept a NO!

bush_cheney2004 · January 28, 2014

...Any ideas on what to do about it?

Nothing should be "done about it". Rich and poor Americans (and Canadians) have freedom of expression rights.

waldo · January 28, 2014

yes, there she is... with a couple of those Kennedy boys right behind her... waiting their turn!

Keepitsimple · January 28, 2014

Canada's (actually Alberta's) bitumen mining and dilbit transport via pipeline to the U.S. are just pawns in a domestic policy battle. President Obama has already broken the hearts of "progressives" on many other issues. It's fun to watch this game play out.

That is so obvious to a balanced observer - but there are so many up here that are caught up in their righteous battle to save the planet that they don't realize they are pawns who are being duped. Sad but true.

waldo · January 28, 2014

That is so obvious to a balanced observer - but there are so many up here that are caught up in their righteous battle to save the planet that they don't realize they are pawns who are being duped. Sad but true.

Simple, based on the statement you quoted, that "domestic policy battle" reference was with respect to the U.S.. That aside, who are your, "they... the pawns" (aka the Dupees), and who are your Dupers? Dupees and Dupers?... splain it Simple.

GostHacked · January 28, 2014

Young's "Prius" (as earlier stated and run with): big-time technological pursuit... with MIT engineers involved... a battery-ethanol hybrid. A big ole honking American car... purposely chosen to show what could be done... with a big ole honking American car!

Ethanol comes from plants, specifically GMO corn. What kinds of resources are needed to grow corn in order to process it into ethanol?