Police 'carding'

[Black Dog]

Black Dog I never responded that people facing racism respond by being illogical.

Again:

More to the point many people when inflammed by thoughts of being racially persecuted shut down and are not logical and rational when discussing issues, in fact the rioting in Baltimore is evidence of that.

Spin it how you want, those are your words in black and white.

You now illustrate blatantly how you took what I stated and now misrepresent it and restate it to make it sound as if I accuse anyone facing racism as illogical for being upset about that.

But that's what you wrote! It's right there!

It is a classic example of how you misrepresent and try suggest through misrepresentation that people are racist because your restatement necessarily suggests racist stereotyping.

I wasn't suggesting you were racist. Addled, confused, inarticulate, but not racist.

What I stated and will state again is that the term racism is what we call a red word.When it is used, it most certainly causes many to get angry and respond with anger and stop talking. Its a word like n.....gger. It can inflame. It often is a word used to stop dialogue and signal violent emotional reaction.

This doesn't make any sense at all and it doesn't square with above which, again, states that it's not people accused of being racist who act irrationally, but rather the people who believe they are victims of racism.

The word itself is meaningless

Two things:

1) no, it's not

2) if it is, why are you freaking out about the idea that someone implied you might be racist (though, once again, no one did)?

Racism is a simplistic concept-it creates a victim and a victimizer in literally black and white terms.

Nope. It's actually fairly complicated.

The reality is in conflict there are multiple levels of social and economic factors that have become imbalanced.The police become a symbol of anything seen as powerful or unfair to those feeling powerless or unfairly treated.

The carding issue, the street riots in Batimore are all part of an elaborate mosaic of power imbalances that society and individuals struggle to contain, manage or cope with.

And many of those power imbalances are the direct result of racist beliefs and practices.

[Black Dog]

Hey remember this?

Cybercoma there are no statics that show the reason more black youth or blacks are arrested is that they are over policed. Or that because a youth is white they are not arrested. You made that up.

Alexander and his colleagues found a terrible trap that affected the lives of Baltimore's poor black people, but not its poor white people. According to their study, poor black kids and poor white kids used drugs and committed crimes at roughly similar rates — if anything, there was a bit more drug use among the white children in the sample. But poor black kids were much more likely than poor white kids to be arrested. And once they were arrested, a criminal record was a much bigger hindrance to a poor black man getting a job than it was for a poor white man.

At the same time, due to their income composition, demographics, location, and so on, black neighborhoods had a lot more crime than white neighborhoods. And so, even putting aside any issues of racially biased policing, they were policed more intensely.

This created, in essence, a trap that closed in on poor black kids. Their neighborhoods had more crime, and so they were policed more heavily. That meant that even though they didn't commit any more crime than poor white kids, they were arrested more often. And when they got arrested, it was harder for them to get a job after prison than it was for a white kid who got arrested, so it became that much more likely they would turn to illegal ways of making money, which meant more crime in the neighborhoods, which meant more aggressive policing, which meant more black kids getting arrested, which meant more young black men held back by criminal records, and so on.

Link

[Rue]

I read this article yes.Its a subjective opinion with no reference to any stats.Its actually similar in conclusion to what I said but where I disagree is this article has not shown over policing is the issue in fact it shows discrimination in the stopping of blacks by police which is not the same as over policing. Over arresting or being more likely to arrest a black youth is not over policing. That is selective discrimination.

To use the word correctly policing refers to the phenomena of how many police officers you have in any zone in a particular time to effectively handle crime and the amount of money spent on equipment, hiring, forensic technology.

With due respect journalists sometimes will use the word over policing when they actually mean over arresting.

Blacks want more police patrols in their neighbourhoods.They say so at meetings. The problem you are actually talking about is not over-policing, but discriminatory exercise of policing power. Big difference.

Police do by far stop and arrest blacks in Toronto far more than whites. The stats are clearly there and the explanation I gave is not new, its wellknown and discussed.Getting black youth work jobs, continuing education and community centres to be able to hang in, those are the challenges.

Dealing with single family home issues, poverty, lack of role models, all issues.

Blacks on the streets necessarily attract more police attention but it doesn't there is over policing. it means there is discriminatory search and seizure tactics.

It helps if arm chair experts at least get their terminology straight.

Policing is not the same as arresting. Arresting people is not interchangeable in concept with policing people. In fact arresting people is only one criteria of policing and it can't by itself prove over policing, just discriminatory behaviour in selection of who is arrested.

The actual budgetary process to decide which neighbourhoods to invest police presence in is a complex one. Removing police from the street won't contain gang crimes, drug crimes, it will allow them to breed. The issue is how to we get police in black communities to have a better relationship with blacks.Often black adults are not the issue, its black youth and the adults share the same issues of conflict with the you as police do, disrespect, rudeness, bullying, violence.

I don't speak for blacks but I sure as hell have listened and been part of mediation teams and community teams and there is no quick fix or magic.

Most of us in the court system see a revolving door.People like me believe in things like street policing, beat cops, cops interacting with youth in schools, community centres,sports activities, social activities, situations other than shake down ones.

Call it stupid but one hockey game, one basketball or football game between youth and cops is huge.

Having youth meet cops at charity events and work together is huge.

I worked Christmas with black at risk youth offenders, everyone arrested for petty crime and drugs learning side by side me and cops how to cook and serve food to people for Christmas. That is huge. That is the kind of stuff I talk of.

[Black Dog]

Toronto police officer punched man he carded in a case of ‘street justice,’ judge finds

Elmardy was walking alone with his hands in his pockets when Const. Andrew Pak and his partner, identified in court documents only as Const. Poole, stopped and carded him, Myers found.

When Elmardy refused to co-operate, the officer punched him, handcuffed him, searched him and, literally, “put him on ice,” leaving him on the cold ground for 20 minutes.

[PIK]

Yes I have been. Why because I am a white middle age male driving a 4x4. Because we are the ones that supposedly are drunk behind the wheel. But I don't whine about it.

[H10]

@PIK, but do the police officers beat you up for being white and exercising your rights like the guy above?

[Black Dog]

Yes I have been. Why because I am a white middle age male driving a 4x4. Because we are the ones that supposedly are drunk behind the wheel. But I don't whine about it.

Difference is, obviously, cops can stop you and ask for proof of identity when you're operating a motor vehicle. They don't have that right when you're walking down the street.

[H10]

I agree with black dog general premise. Police have the right to talk to you, but you suppose to have the right to ignore them if you aren't doing a crime or are not seen doing a crime. carding here isn't about people doing crime. Its about people committing no crime nor having any seeming involvement in crimes being harassed by police for exercising their right to not talk to police.

[Rue]

Interestingly the article Black Dog quoted stated that the Judge did not make a ruling on carding or comment on carding. However it does provide him with a negative story and that is his agenda-to reduce a complex issue into a simplistic negative and state what is wrong but offer no solutions to what makes things better.

In the case now used by Black Dog to present the negative, the individual stopped was upset at being stopped (carded) and swore at the police officer who then appears to have used excessive force in response.

What Black Dog will not show you because it won't suit his agenda, is an article on a black youth being stopped, questioned, reacting calmly and the cop then giving him back his id and no fuss and a relationship formed so next time the cop seems him on the street he knows him.

Black dog's agenda is to focus on the negative not the positive. He wont provide any stories of street interactions with police and black youth that are positive and crucial to keep a connection going so that cops know who belong in what neighbourhood and who is on the street and might need a friendly acnowledgement b because he just got into a fight with his girlfriend, father, whatever and they can talk to them and say its all o.k.

This notion Black Dog has that a police officer can not stop you and ask you for your id on the street is ridiculously simple and inaccurate. The fact is any officer can stop any one of us and ask for i.d. if they have REASONABLE grounds and no what is reasonable does not get decided by Black dog from the comfort of his after the fact editorials from his sofa in his sheltered privileged environment.

The point the Judge missed in his decision is that swearing at a police officer can easily escalate to assault, resisting arrest, disturbing the peace, etc.

So the Judge should have stated while the police officer's behaviour was completely unacceptable swearing at police officers is never to be condoned no matter how justified someone may feel it is. Two wrongs do not make a right-that concept that two wrongs do not make a right is not in Black Dog's script. In his world, one has the right to have a tantrum if they are proclaimed righteous or a victim of oppression by Black Dog.

In the real world. people survive because they learn to control their emotions not have tantrums when things seem unfair.

This is precisely why street workers tell youth, stay calm. Don't mouth off. Fire can't burn without oxygen.

I did a case where young black youth was hanging outside a MacDonald's after school. They did it everyday. The kids would come out of high school and hang out in front socializing. Its what youth do. The owner called the police feeling they were intimidating customers from entering. When a young black youth, not a bad kid at all, just a goofy teen was asked for his id he told the cops who were called and drove up in front, that he knew his rights and he would not provide id and he was brought in after swearing at the cop..

I had to go down there and get the kid out of holding. His father was an idiot. I met him at the station carrying on like some 60's Black Panther and the desk cops were ignoring him and since Black Dog has to know one was a woman, one was Asian and the other white and one of the officers who brought him in was a mulatto-the fact is of course their race status is irrelevant but with Black dog where everything is either white or black this needs to be pointed out.

I told hos father to sit down and shut up. His father's had was the size of my entire head. The father is a good man but a hot head. He knows me not as a Jew or white but as the guy who tutored his kid. Period. Simple respect. No b.s. So I talk to him with zero b.s. His trust in me comes from seeing I believe in the law no matter how flawed it is not because I have an agenda. Well I do. His father is a damn good electician and I make sure to know at least an electician, a plumber and a good i.t. guy.

Lucklily the cops who brought him in were still there and I had the kid speak directly to them and made the kid shake hands with the cop. Had he just moved on the cop would have done nothing. I did not have the father speak with the cops. too angry. I get it. Fighting with the cop in front of other kids had the cops lose face and feel they had to make an example of him/ Now the father is pissed because of memories of his own unfair treatment. No you can't resolve all that.

The kid I know because I play basketball with him and helped himw ith homework. He now plays basketball with the cop he brought him in. That is how you deal with this. I can't change the father but I sure as hell can get to the kid. Its not always that easy.

That kind of story Black Dog will never acknowledge but I can show anyone many people working in communities as volunteers including cops who do this stuff. I can show you clergymen doing this stuff.

Thuis world is m ade up of people whether they are cops or blacks, who are pretty much the same person, someone who does now want to be disrespected. So teaching people how to see the other person's side of things, not just their own, different ways to react can come about creating a positive reaction. That is a lesson all religions teach and yet its missed on this thread by some.

The fact is mediation, learning to engage in posiitive behaviour works, and if we are going to turn aroun the tension between young blacks and cops, it comes, one interaction at a time, teaching youth to stay calm and engage in non adversarial techniques to talk. It can and does work if you are willing to work in communities at a grass roots level. I know plenty of parents, cops, teachers, who do. Oh they won' be in any article Black Dog will find that I can assure you.

In his world, we just point out what's wrong.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Rue

[Black Dog]

Interestingly the article Black Dog quoted stated that the Judge did not make a ruling on carding or comment on carding. However it does provide him with a negative story and that is his agenda-to reduce a complex issue into a simplistic negative and state what is wrong but offer no solutions to what makes things better.

In the case now used by Black Dog to present the negative, the individual stopped was upset at being stopped (carded) and swore at the police officer who then appears to have used excessive force in response.

What Black Dog will not show you because it won't suit his agenda, is an article on a black youth being stopped, questioned, reacting calmly and the cop then giving him back his id and no fuss and a relationship formed so next time the cop seems him on the street he knows him.

Actually I provided such an article earlier that detailed just such an interaction More than 50 of them, in fact. Of course, those interactions highlight exactly what the issue with carding is, so it probably doesn't suit your agenda, whatever the heck it is.

This notion Black Dog has that a police officer can not stop you and ask you for your id on the street is ridiculously simple and inaccurate. The fact is any officer can stop any one of us and ask for i.d. if they have REASONABLE grounds and no what is reasonable does not get decided by Black dog from the comfort of his after the fact editorials from his sofa in his sheltered privileged environment.

Yes they need reasonable grounds to believe you have committed a criminal offense. I have already acknowledged this. It changes nothing.

In the real world. people survive because they learn to control their emotions not have tantrums when things seem unfair.

The fact that you think the problem with cops reacting violently to people who get upset with their rights being abrogated is the reaction and not the violation speaks volumes about you.

So the Judge should have stated while the police officer's behaviour was completely unacceptable swearing at police officers is never to be condoned no matter how justified someone may feel it is. Two wrongs do not make a right-that concept that two wrongs do not make a right is not in Black Dog's script. In his world, one has the right to have a tantrum if they are proclaimed righteous or a victim of oppression by Black Dog.

I believe one has the right to assert one's rights when they are being violated and can do so in any manner that does not interfere with the public’s normal activities or with the ordinary and customary use by the public of the place in question.

In other words: you certainly have the right to swear at the police.

That kind of story Black Dog will never acknowledge but I can show anyone many people working in communities as volunteers including cops who do this stuff. I can show you clergymen doing this stuff.

Who cares? None of this white saviour stuff is relevant to the discussion of carding, the subject of this thread and one you continue to avoid addressing.

[Rue]

I just got got back and read Black D's response where he tries to equate me with a white saviour and again tries to attack me personally by making some half assed supposition that because I challenge people who swear at police it speaks volumes of me. It is the kind of personal and petulant attempts t insult I have come to expect from BD who believes swearing at police is a "right".

Ironically by saying this he can't see the absurdity in trying to argue swearing at people is a legal right. That of course is not and was never the issue, but in BD's world everything reflects his feelings of entitlement projected onto others.

Now BD you want to make little snitty comments referring to my comments and myself as a white saviour. Right tell everyone what race you are and where you get off calling me white saviour. Go on tell the world now you are a black man speaking for black man and call me a white saviour. Go on finish the posing as a black man telling whitey where to go. What a pathetic attempt to portray yourself as a hip liberal dude of the oppressed. Lol. Your very pen name is a racist insult lol you tell them bro. Go on shake that lily white butt in my face and tell me how white and elitist I am. You would know.

[LD Marg Survey]

This is really use full Police Carding, which is officially known as the Community Contacts Policy, is an intelligence gathering policy of the Toronto Police Service involving the stopping, questioning, and documenting of individuals when no particular offense is being investigated. The information collected is kept on record in the Field Information Report database.