'Is Iran an existential threat to Israel?' former mossad chief

[Rue]

Bud I have not denied they are a political party in the Lebanese parliament.

The issue is not whether they have a political party in the Lebanese parliament but whether they are

also an armed terrorist group that breaks laws and engages in terrorism.

Your position that one can just magically ignore their terrorist wing to determine their legitimacy is illogical.

Edited November 23, 2013 by Rue

[Rue]

Eyeball:

I met a man once. He claimed he had no faith in humanity and anyone who did was an idiot.

Then he asked me for $5. I told him he was an idiot.

You'd be surprised what I can learn when I want to.

[GostHacked]

So even when some leaders including the USA are calling the new Iran nuke deals good, Bibi is going off saying it will put the region in more peril. I'd really love Israel to come clean with it's nuclear program/weapons before they point the finger at anyone else. Each time progress is made Israel thumbs their nose at it.

[bleeding heart]

I think Netanyahu's remarks seem pretty out there. While the agreements remain pretty tentative and contingent for the time being, it seems to me a much-welcomed moment of a possible triumph of diplomacy. The hard-liners like Netanyahu are sounding pretty fringe-ish at the moment.

Edited November 24, 2013 by bleeding heart

[GostHacked]

I think Netanyahu's remarks seem pretty out there. While the agreements remain pretty tentative and contingent for the time being, it seems to me a much-welcomed moment of a possible triumph of diplomacy. The hard-liners like Netanyahu are sounding pretty fringe-ish at the moment.

Bibi was always on the fringe. He IS the fringe. He has held the stance for a few decades that he does not want the Palestinians to get their own nation. There is no way to deny HIS own words.

Palestine gets UN recognition. The response is to build more illegal settlements.

Iran gets a deal from international members and is applauded by many, Bibi calls them weak and says it will escalate tension. The only tension I feel is coming from Israel. This should be applauded by Israel, but we get the opposite.

Bibi is looking more like a radical than a true leader. That red line has not been crossed, and it has been stopped for the moment. The guy should be happy that this was something he wanted to accomplish. Israel got EXACTLY what they wanted and they are still not happy about it.

Israel must come clean with it's nuclear programs and weapons before they even think about pointing the finger at someone else.

[Rue]

Bleeding Heart you don't live in Netanyahu's reality so of course you think they are "out there".

You don't read the daily intelligence reports he does. You are not privy to the information he has and you

don't.

You sit thousands of miles from any fall out zone of nuclear or chemical contamination and take your world and security for granted. You don't wake up less than a suburb away from terrorists dedicated to wiping you out.

You don't worry about the US lobbying in missiles with chemical or nuclear or even dirty nuclear missiles.

You don't live in a country where a missile can come in at any time on a moment's notice as could some lunatic

with a body bomb.

So of course he seems belligerent to you.

Yah he seems belligerent. If I pointed a gun in your head and questioned your right to exist how do you think you would feel let alone sound?

I didn't come on this board to white wash Netanyahu. I have openly criticized his policies on the West Bank.

I am no fan but please don't expect to judge this man for defending his people under a very real threat of anhiliation,

Its easy for Obama, you and anyone else to lecture Israel on their security-you are not them though.

Obama is being extremely arrogant thinking he can lecture Israel on what is good for them just as he is deadly naïve in thinking he can get Iran to do his bidding.

Netanyahu does not operate in a vacuum.

Of course he will sound belligerent.

Most Israelis do not want a war with Iran.

I think they would take a chance for peace but when you humiliate their leader, it puts them in defensive position. They will feel like they have to save face just as Egypt and Saudi Arabia now do.

All I can summarize with is say this-beneath all that rhetoric, all that posturing, let's all hope there are moderate people in both Iran and Israel who can have a say in the outcome.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Rue

[bud]

Bleeding Heart you don't live in Netanyahu's reality so of course you think they are "out there".

You don't read the daily intelligence reports he does. You are not privy to the information he has and you

don't.

bibi and his warmongering friends have been saying iran will be going nuclear for over 2 decades. the guy is what people call, a liar:

1992: Israeli member of parliament Binyamin Netanyahu predicts that Iran was “3 to 5 years” from having a nuclear weapon.

1992: Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres predicts an Iranian nuclear warhead by 1999 to French TV.

1995: The New York Times quotes US and Israeli officials saying that Iran would have the bomb by 2000.

1998: Donald Rumsfeld tells Congress that Iran could have an intercontinental ballistic missile that could hit the US by 2003.

link

here is bibi showing his proof:

this clown should be sidelined. all he has on his side are the congressmen and senators who have been bought by the pro-israeli lobby groups.

[jbg]

What about this statement by Iran's current Ayatollah (link to article):

Is this lovely tweet from Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei: a) peace offering; a negotiating position; or c) a threat of annihilation?

Khamenei.ir @khamenei_ir Follow

This barbaric, wolflike & infanticidal regime of #Israel which spares no crime has no cure but to be annihilated. 7/23/14 #HandsOffAlAqsa

According to the article linked above he then said:

He then culminated by posting a “neat table,” as Haaretz puts it, that lays out nine key questions on why—and how—his plan to destroy Israel should be implemented. The post begins with the basic: Why? Because throughout its existence “the fake Zionist regime has tried to realize its goals by means of infanticide, homicide, violence & iron fist.” But rest easy, Iran definitely does not want “the massacre of the Jewish people” but rather Iran has proposed “a practical & logical mechanism” to eliminate Israel through a referendum involving “all the original people of Palestine, including Muslims, Chrsitians and Jews” anywhere in the world.

This combined with incipient nuclear capabilities sounds like an existential threat. Am I missing something?

Edited November 16, 2014 by jbg

[GostHacked]

Iran does not have nukes, and despite what some people think here, Iran also abandoned the NPT some years ago.

[marcus]

FYI jbg:

re·gime

rəˈZHēm,rāˈZHēm/

noun

1.

a government, especially an authoritarian one.

It's very rare that I find myself agreeing with Khamenei and the rest of those idiots, but in the case of removing the Zionist regime, I do. But also I think Khamenei should also be removed.

[Rue]

Iran does not have nukes, and despite what some people think here, Iran also abandoned the NPT some years ago.

Say now its interesting Bubba isn't asking you for a cite. I wont either. I mean I trust you to know these things and that you wouldn't just

make that up.

[BubberMiley]

Say now its interesting Bubba isn't asking you for a cite. I wont either. I mean I trust you to know these things and that you wouldn't just

make that up.

Still hurts that I exposed what your cites really were, eh?

Maybe next time you should try defending your sources of information rather than calling people anti-Semitic for requesting them.

Edited November 19, 2014 by BubberMiley

[Rue]

"Your sites". Yes I own them. That personal attack is par for the course. So is trying to avoid debating the contents of the sites using the tactic of smeering the sites with no basis for the smeer.

The sites were provided by you, not me.

The decision to smeer those sites as wingnut with no basis other than ridiculing the last name of someone who wrote a report one of the site's referred to without reading the report was your decision.

The need to come on this thread and avoid debating issues but trying to bait me or others to avoid having to debate the issues, is there for all to see.

Do carry on and try remember this thread was not about me. You need to call me names and bait, go off line and stop hijacking the threads although I am so flattered you seem preoccupied with moi.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Rue

[BubberMiley]

It's very sad that a small Jewish nation isn't allowed to exist and that so many here take the sides of leaders and countries who have outright called for the destruction of Isral and the genocide of the Jewish people.

Israel will still be here long after all of us are dead, so I think it's very much "allowed to exist." It's sad that people here try and use it as a pawn in the lefties-versus-righties debate and make up BS that "many here" are calling for genocide. If that were true, you would be able to cite one person on this board calling for genocide. Of course, you can't and instead you'll just scurry away like your "entourage" does when asked to put up or shut up.

[Rue]

I believe Capt.Canada that would be quite difficult at this point. President Obama deliberately leaked to the press details of air bases in Aerberjan that might have been used for such an air raid deliberately as part of a plan to make an alliance with Iran and Hezbollah. I believe Obama thought by putting a Shiite puppet in Iraq and making it a proxy Shiite state like Lebanon, in return the Iranians and Hezbollah would look the other way on Syria who Erdigan and Assad were planning to replace as a Shiite puppet with a Muslim Brotherhood one.

Only the plan backfired. ISIS the group sent to get rid of Ghaddafi and then Assad turned on Erdogan and Obama when the Shiite puppet in Iraq started massacring too many Sunnis. Only an idiot like Obama would think he could create a Sunni extremist group like ISIS to do his bidding in being a proxy disposal system of Ghaddafi and Assad but not turn on him.

Now we have Obama kissing up to Iran stating publically he can work with them and Hezbollah against ISIS.

Israel is on its own as is Egypt. These two countries warned Obama to not get involved with Erdogan and prop Sunni or Shiite extremists but he knew better.

Then again this is the same Obama who covered up when ISIS killed his own ambassador in Libya. This is the same Obama who conveniently looked the other way as thousands of Coptic Christians were the target or rage as Morsi his Muslim Brotherhood ally incited crowds to attack them and blame them for Egypt's ills.(hey when you run out of Jews, get the next best thing, Coptic Christians).

This is the same Obama who has refused to assist Nigeria with Boca Raton, remained silent when thousands of Christians died in Sudan at the hands of a government whose financing came from Malik Obama his half brother. Say what a coincidence.

But hey cheer up. Justin Trudeau will soon be elected and get to the root causes of these problems and bring peace to the world.

Excuse me. I need a cup of coffee (with a little Bailey's).

[Rue]

The constitutions of Hamas,ISIS and Al Quaeda call for the genocide of Jews and Israelis as part of a world war to turn the world into one Muslim caliphate which comes directly from their creator organization the Muslim Brotherhood.

[BubberMiley]

Bubber, siding with governments who themselves call for the genocide of the Jewish people is the same as if you said it yourself.

You're right. Now, who did that again?

[guyser]

I'm seriously giving thought to bailing from Canada at some point in the future if things don't get any better.

Promise ?

[PIK]

I would trust Israel having nukes ,but not the religious nutcases in Iran.

[Big Guy]

I believe that Iran is the key to a lasting peace in the Middle East. If/when the West begins to accept the strength of Iran and its ability to influence the power allocation in the area then stability may come to the area. Iran was once a formidable and trustworthy ally of the West and has the potential to be so again. As to who to trust with the "bomb". It is not our choice. North Korea has it as does Pakistan. Iran will also soon have it.

We cannot and should not assume that Israel is working towards the same ends as we are.

[BubberMiley]

The constitutions of Hamas,ISIS and Al Quaeda call for the genocide of Jews and Israelis as part of a world war to turn the world into one Muslim caliphate which comes directly from their creator organization the Muslim Brotherhood.

Where are you getting your information from?

[Rue]

Look who is trying to defocus from the thread by raising a denial of what the constitutions of Hamas, Isil and Al Quaeda call for.

Bubber your attempts to bait are not working. As much as you try to make this thread about you its not. The attempt to avoid debating and discussing the thread by using this tactic has failed and its interesting Marcus, you and Hudson Jones try use this tactic over and over to avoid debating the thread at hand. Move on. Its not working.

This thread is whether Iran is an existential threat to Israel.

Now back to Iran.

Chancellor Merkel of Germany seems to think Iran is a threat to Europe as well as Israel:

http://article.wn.com/view/2014/02/25/iran_a_threat_not_just_to_Israel_says_Germanys_Merkel/

It is true back in December of 2011, Mossad Director Pardo said he felt Iran was a nuclear threat but questioned the use of the word "existential".

There is of course debate on whether Israel is more of a threat to Iran than Iran is to Israel.

Pro Iranians and anti Israelis will of course take the line that Iran is only building domestic nuclear technology and is no threat.

The fact is Egypt, Jordan, Israel, Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Kuwait are of the firm belief Iran is the no.1 threat of the Middle East.

I suppose one could argue Pakistan or Turkey or even Obama are biggest threat to the Middle East.

Certainly Obama's idiotic move to equip a Muslim Brotherhood revolution and try forge an alliance with the failed Morsi and flip flopping erdogan led to the arming of ISIL which after taking out Ghadaffi then turned on Obama mutilating his ambassador in Libya and then turning rogue in Syria and Iraq. This coupled with Obama's attempting to ally with Iran now and wink wink nudg nudge remove any time constraints from their putting a deadline on negotiation with Iran, has caused the nations I mentioned for forge a not so subtle anti Iran alliance and rely on China and Russia, not Obama to try keep Iran under control.

China's strong military alliance with Israel has enabled Israel a new back channel other than the US to keep an eye on Iran after Obama deliberately exposed Israel's air bases in Azereberjan to the press although its highly likely for them to have been placed there China and Russia would have had to have known and looked the other way.

What we now see are China and Russia, playing the middle man between Iran and the states mentioned not the US as Obama bailed out of that role although no doubt a Republican President would want to reinstate the US in that role again.

Iran remains a stratehic threat to the moderate Sunni world, India, Europe as well as Israel and the US.

Its a threat because of its strategic naval position, its support of Hezbollah and other Shiite an Muslim extremists, its support of Assad, and its past attempts to destabilize and inflate world oil prices.

Is Israel a threat to Iran and vice versa, of course.

No one knows the true extent and nature of the threat. I believe its germ warfare not nuclear myself. I believe Iran has capable rockets that could easily shoot rockets full of germs into Israel let alone dirty bombs already.

I think the actual nuclear bomb is a psychologically symbolic threat. I think germ warfare is much more of an immediate direct population threat. That is my subjetive opinion.

I think Obama's idiot decision to suck up to Erdogan and now Iran has a year or so to run and whether Obama's flip flopping empowers Iran to b more of a threat which I think it will, remains to be seen..

Edited December 1, 2014 by Rue

[BubberMiley]

Bubber your attempts to bait are not working.

I realize that you just want to spew what you feel like without following forum rules for citing where you get your information, but you still haven't apologized for calling me anti-Israel, Ezra.

[Rue]

Now here is an interesting opinion shared by Maryam Rajavi head of the Iranian undergroudn resistance at:

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO1411/S00270/maryam-rajavi-iran-nuclear-negotiations-a-serious-threat.htm

"Maryam Rajavi: Iran Nuclear Negotiations a Serious Threat
Tuesday, 25 November 2014, 3:31 pm
Press Release: National Council of Resistance of Iran

Failure of the year-long negotiations, seven months extension of endless negotiations, ignoring Security Council resolutions, leave the way open for mullahs to acquire nuclear bomb, entailing serious threat to world peace and security

according to Maryam Rajavi:

Mrs. Maryam Rajavi, President-elect of the Iranian Resistance, described the failure of negotiations by the United States and the five powers with the religious fascism ruling Iran due to unjustified concessions to the regime and flexibilities exercised in dealing with the regime and said: Ignoring Security Council resolutions and extending endless negotiations with the Iranian regime leave the way open to acquire nuclear bomb which is considered by the mullahs as a “guarantee for survival” of the regime.

Continuing with negotiations which have been going on for 12 years instead of decisiveness and intensifying sanctions amounts to taking a path which will inevitably lead to nuclear bomb. This is the repeat of the same policies and mistakes which have brought the mullahs so close to the nuclear bomb.

Mrs. Rajavi added that the mullahs’ medieval regime engulfed with internal crises and in fear of consequences of relinquishing its nuclear bomb program, in accordance with the redline set out by Ali Khamenei, will refrain from signing a comprehensive accord which would prevent it from obtaining nuclear bomb. Nuclear bomb and domination of Iraq are vital for the Godfather of ISIS and international banker of terrorism. Giving seven more months to the regime will only provide further opportunity to the regime to obtain bomb.

Mrs. Rajavi stressed that last year the clerical regime, under pressure by international sanction, internal isolation and revelation of its nuclear weapons program by the Resistance, was forced to retreat one step and signed the Geneva accord. Numerous unjustified concessions by Western governments have emboldened the regime. This is the result of shameful silence regarding the gross violation of human rights in Iran including among others throwing acid on women and daily executions across Iran and also regarding export of terrorism and occupation in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon and Yemen.

Mrs. Rajavi recalled that after the Geneva accord she had declared that “the extent of the regime’s retreat and abandoning nuclear weapons as well as its compliance with international obligations depend precisely on the degree of decisiveness and firmness of the world community vis-à-vis the regime’s evil intentions and its intrinsic deceptiveness... Any leniency, hesitancy and concessions by the international community will prompt Khamenei to once again move towards manufacturing nuclear weapons through deception and cheating.”

Mrs. Rajavi reiterated that full implementation of Security Council resolutions, in particular complete halt in enrichment activities, acceptance and ratification of additional protocol, and free access to suspicious sites and installations of the regime by inspectors are crucial to ensure the regime would abandon its efforts to acquire nuclear bomb. Experience shows that such result can only be achieved by decisiveness and comprehensive political, oil and arms sanction as well as evicting Iran from Iraq, Syria, Yemen and Lebanon.

A report by the International Committee in Search of Justice published last week clearly indicated that the Iranian regime’s nuclear program was from the outset with military intentions and all its apparent civilian activities were at the service of building nuclear bomb. The regime never reported these activities voluntarily to the International Atomic Energy Agency under None Proliferation Treaty and it was the Iranian Resistance that for the first time revealed the regime’s program. "

I agree with her.

[Rue]

Now when one discusses Iran as a threat it would help if they understand her missile capacity:

cite: Iran, ArmsControl.Org at http://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/iranprofile

"Iran has one of the largest deployed missile & cruise missile forces inthe Middle East, with some missiles capable of covering ranges up to2,000 kilometers. (1242miles)

Iran’s most sophisticated operational ballistic missile is the liquid

-fueled Shahab-3, which has a rangeof about 1,300 kilometers. Iran has made progress in developing and testing solid fueled missile

technologies, which could significantly increase the mobility of Iran’s missile force. Since November of

2008, Iran has conducted a number of test-launches of a two-stage solid fuel-propelled missile, theSajjil-2, which has a reported range of about 2,000 kilometers. Iran has also developed a two stage,liquid-fueled, space launch vehicle, the Safir and placed a small satellite in orbit, the Omid, using thissystem Feb. 2, 2009. In June 2011, the Safir space launch vehicle was used again to place a smallimage-collecting satellite, the Rasad, into orbit. A larger space launch vehicle, the Simorgh, is alsobelieved to be in development.

Iran has a variety of short-, medium-, and long-range missiles; whilemany are based on other missiles such as the SCUD. Cruise Missiles: Ukrainian President ViktorYushchenko confirmed in 2005 that Iran illegally procured six Kh-55 cruise missiles from Ukraine fouryears earlier. The Kh-55 is an air-launched nuclear-capable cruise missile with a range of up to 3,000kilometers (1864 miles). Iran also has acquired a variety of Chinese anti-ship cruise missiles. In March2010 Iran announced the development of a new cruise missile, the Nasr-1, claimed to be capable of destroying warships and military targets up to 3,000 tons."