Police are shooting the mentally ill

[jacee]

I do not blame law enforcement for these killings. Policemen are not psychiatrists and when dealing with somebody armed have to assume that the individual is not suffering from mental illness but "normal" and just plain dangerous. A few second hesitation can cost a policemen and other innocents their lives.

"somebody armed" ?

I don't think the cases we've discussed involved any mentally ill people in distress who had firearms.

.

[Wilber]

We all live in the path of harm's way to one degree or another. I'm well aware of what PTSD is.

I'd been on the reserve fire department down the road years before and the chief knew I had a lot first aid training so he called one day to come respond to a kid who'd been caught between a dog fight and mauled by one of them. I arrived on scene and while there wasn't a lot of blood his lower leg was badly punctured, he was in shock and pain but seemed more worried about the dogs. A crowd had gathered and there was a lot of yelling and crying going on. The cops arrived moments before someone shot the dog that presumably bit the kid. The kid reacted really badly to that because he figured the whole thing was his fault and I was still trying to calm him down about the time the ambulance arrived. It definitely took me a few hours to wind down that day, the cops also looked a little worse for wear and the whole village was on edge for days.

I'd hate to imagine how a cop feels when they've shot some poor demented soul who it turned out was just ill. And I can guarantee you that many of the loved one's of ill people who are killed carry a lot of guilt and emotional distress too, it's like a contagious aspect of the mental illness the individual was afflicted with - everyone gets a little sick in the process and many often find themselves on a therapist's couch too. It bears mentioning that mentally ill people are far far more likely to be the victims of violence, instead of being perpetrators.

It's a little weird that the same governments that appeal to those who criticize a lot of the public funding that goes to public health also under-fund the mental health needs of people they most want to see money going towards - like people being put in harm's way. Hey look, there goes a radical! Here quick, hit him with a million or two!

We may claim to know what PTSD is but I wonder if we do. We are not subject to these traumas for 12 hour shifts our entire working lives. While we may understand the traumatic effect of a few incidents in our lives, the accumulated effect of years of exposure is beyond our understanding.

[eyeball]

Why would you say that? We can study, examine and see the effect in others and the occasional touch we experience ourselves facing the ordinary tragedies of life provide a sense of what it feels like. We certainly know enough to assemble and dispatch teams of experts to major events involving large numbers of victims. They're not just on hand to dole out lollipops and there there's.

That it's beyond our understanding as a medical issue that might require a lot more funding than it's getting is what I'd expect politicians to say before announcing we need more studies before actually addressing it.

Institutional or systemic ignorance notwithstanding, PTSD is not very difficult at all for most people to empathize with. Just remind them of what it feels like to experience, witness or deal with their own or another's suffering or painful shock.

[Keepitsimple]

"somebody armed" ?

I don't think the cases we've discussed involved any mentally ill people in distress who had firearms.

.

Easy for you to say - these "confrontations" happen all the time across Canada and the vast majority are handled by police without the need of undue force. Of course we only get the "sensational" stories. But to the point of this story - a mentally ill man with a shovel may not be "armed" in the conventional sense - but a shovel can be a very deadly weapon - especially in the hands of psychotic individuals who have been known to exhibit extraordinary strength. Put yourself in the Policeman's shoes - would you chance getting hit in the head from a powerful swing of a shovel as a madman is coming at you?

[Wilber]

Why would you say that? We can study, examine and see the effect in others and the occasional touch we experience ourselves facing the ordinary tragedies of life provide a sense of what it feels like. We certainly know enough to assemble and dispatch teams of experts to major events involving large numbers of victims. They're not just on hand to dole out lollipops and there there's.

That it's beyond our understanding as a medical issue that might require a lot more funding than it's getting is what I'd expect politicians to say before announcing we need more studies before actually addressing it.

Institutional or systemic ignorance notwithstanding, PTSD is not very difficult at all for most people to empathize with. Just remind them of what it feels like to experience, witness or deal with their own or another's suffering or painful shock.

When I say we can't understand the effects of prolonged exposure, I mean on a personal level. Certainly we can study the effects and try to take some actions to mitigate them. When we are critical of the police when it comes to some of their actions regarding mentally ill people, it would be wise to remember that they are in an occupation that puts stresses on their own mental heallth that the majority of us can't appreciate. These people undergo psychological testing before they are hired so it is reasonable to assume they are at least as mentally stable as any group when they start their careers

[eyeball]

Easy for you to say - these "confrontations" happen all the time across Canada and the vast majority are handled by police without the need of undue force. Of course we only get the "sensational" stories. But to the point of this story - a mentally ill man with a shovel may not be "armed" in the conventional sense - but a shovel can be a very deadly weapon - especially in the hands of psychotic individuals who have been known to exhibit extraordinary strength. Put yourself in the Policeman's shoes - would you chance getting hit in the head from a powerful swing of a shovel as a madman is coming at you?

I understand lethal force is sometimes the only option but it's nowhere near as rare an occurrence as you're implying.

Police shootings often involve mental illness and ill-prepared officers

Many police shootings occur when a suspect with a history of mental illness confronts poorly-trained officers

Source

Police officers frequently encounter people with mental illness—approximately 5 percent of U.S. residents have a serious mental illness,§ and 10 to 15 percent of jailed people have severe mental illness. [2] An estimated 7 percent of police contacts in jurisdictions with 100,000 or more people involve the mentally ill.[3] A three-city study found that 92 percent of patrol officers had at least one encounter with a mentally ill person in crisis in the previous month,[4] and officers averaged six such encounters per month. The Lincoln (Nebraska) Police Department found that it handled over 1,500 mental health investigation cases in 2002, and that it spent more time on these cases than on injury traffic accidents, burglaries, or felony assaults. [5] The New York City Police Department responds to about 150,000 “emotionally disturbed persons” calls per year.[6]

Source

Half of people shot by police are mentally ill, investigation finds

Source

“a review of available reports indicates that at least half of the estimated 375 to 500 people shot and killed by police each year in this country have mental health problems.”

[eyeball]

When I say we can't understand the effects of prolonged exposure, I mean on a personal level. Certainly we can study the effects and try to take some actions to mitigate them. When we are critical of the police when it comes to some of their actions regarding mentally ill people, it would be wise to remember that they are in an occupation that puts stresses on their own mental heallth that the majority of us can't appreciate. These people undergo psychological testing before they are hired so it is reasonable to assume they are at least as mentally stable as any group when they start their careers

I think the psychological testing is probably on par with the training they receive.

“Some of them, it seems the person is almost executed,” said Ron Honberg, director of national policy and legal affairs at the National Alliance on Mental Illness, the country’s premier mental health advocacy group.

Source

[dre]

Ok lets get this straight, they have guns, and he has a shovel. Whether he is a retard or not.. you still don't shoot someone with a shovel. unless they are a risk to someone you don't shoot people.

Police need to be better equipped and trained in the use of non lethal force. A lot of the shootings weve seen recently would not even have been remotely hard to deal with in a non-lethal way.

The cops in this video could have pumped this guy full of bullets, and probably not even faced charges... he was lunging at them with a needled. The police keep the guy contained, they temporarily retreated a few steps when they need to, and then they take him out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-cl=85114404&feature=player_detailpage&v=IImAfUhEWyE&x-yt-ts=1422579428

We need better police, with better equipment.

[eyeball]

The cops in the video could have also used a gun that shoots a net to help immobilize the guy.

[jacee]

Easy for you to say - these "confrontations" happen all the time across Canada and the vast majority are handled by police without the need of undue force. Of course we only get the "sensational" stories. But to the point of this story - a mentally ill man with a shovel may not be "armed" in the conventional sense - but a shovel can be a very deadly weapon - especially in the hands of psychotic individuals who have been known to exhibit extraordinary strength. Put yourself in the Policeman's shoes - would you chance getting hit in the head from a powerful swing of a shovel as a madman is coming at you?

How close was he?

Was he coming at them?

What about the fence between them?

What about the house they 'assumed' he was breaking into ... with a shovel ... HIS OWN HOUSE!!!

He wasn't psychotic: He was being treated for depression.

Don't know the facts?

Don't make them up.

.

Facts:

The police were called to help someone who was suicidal.

Chasing him with guns drawn is not exactly the best approach.

Why the hell didn't they call the crisis team while looking for him in the half hour + between his first and second suicide attempts?

The cops tracked him down and treated him like a criminal instead of a person in need of help, when they had plenty of time to have the crisis team there.

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Edited February 2, 2015 by jacee

[Keepitsimple]

I understand lethal force is sometimes the only option but it's nowhere near as rare an occurrence as you're implying.

You've cited statistics from the far more violent US. There were 15 people killed by non-military authorities in Canada in 2014 which was an unusually high figure - it's usually about half that, or less. Even if we assume that as many as half of those were mentally ill, it's a rare occurrence - and I'm not implying....here are the details:

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_Canada

[Wilber]

I think the psychological testing is probably on par with the training they receive.

What's that supposed to mean?

[eyeball]

It means they both suck.

[eyeball]

There were 15 people killed by non-military authorities in Canada in 2014 which was an unusually high figure - it's usually about half that, or less. Even if we assume that as many as half of those were mentally ill, it's a rare occurrence...

Politicians just committed to spending millions upon millions on increasing police resources and powers in reaction to something far far rarer.

Don't tell me there isn't enough money, the world must be awash in the stuff given how fast Ottawa is cutting a huge cheque to police.

[Keepitsimple]

Politicians just committed to spending millions upon millions on increasing police resources and powers in reaction to something far far rarer.

Don't tell me there isn't enough money, the world must be awash in the stuff given how fast Ottawa is cutting a huge cheque to police.

You're drifting off topic.....the statistics I provided show the occurrences of a mentally ill person being killed by police is very rare - but I've already conceded that the police likely have to de-escalate many, many more incidents that go unreported. As for money, the major city's police forces have invested significant amounts in training their officers in handling and de-escalating incidents with the mentally ill. Delivery of healthcare - physical or mental - is the responsibility of the Provinces. If you want more progress - look to leadership from your Province to coordinate City, Police, Hospital, emergency and social workers. This is not a Federal matter.

[Wilber]

It means they both suck.

And of course you are qualified to make such an assesment.

[eyeball]

You're drifting off topic.....the statistics I provided show the occurrences of a mentally ill person being killed by police is very rare - but I've already conceded that the police likely have to de-escalate many, many more incidents that go unreported. As for money, the major city's police forces have invested significant amounts in training their officers in handling and de-escalating incidents with the mentally ill. Delivery of healthcare - physical or mental - is the responsibility of the Provinces. If you want more progress - look to leadership from your Province to coordinate City, Police, Hospital, emergency and social workers. This is not a Federal matter.

I'm not drifting off topic at all.

Providing health care leadership to the Provinces is a clearly a Federal matter and the Federal government is well aware of widespread deficiencies in provincial funding as it relates to mental health.

OUT OF THE SHADOWS AT LAST

Transforming Mental Health, Mental Illness and Addiction Services in Canada

Parliament of Canada

The federal government is responsible for:

• setting and administering national principles for the health care system through the Canada Health Act;
• assisting in the financing of provincial/territorial health care services through fiscal transfers;
• delivering health care services to specific groups (e.g. First Nations and Inuit and veterans), and
• providing other health-related functions such as public health and health protection programs and health research.

Federal Role in Health

The government is clearly falling down on all four points. The leadership example it is setting right now is that spending huge gobs of public money on politically motivated reaction to very rare events as opposed to things like the demonstrated mental health needs of up to 4 out of 5 Canadians, including police and veterans is okay.

[eyeball]

And of course you are qualified to make such an assesment.

I don't have a diploma but I'm quite confident I'm better qualified than a lot of people around here, especially right wingers.

The issues of mental health and excessive police force are just way to morally and ethically challenging for most right wingers to approach without their heads exploding, especially when the issues are co-joined as they so often are.

Edited February 2, 2015 by eyeball

[Wilber]

I don't have a diploma but I'm quite confident I'm better qualified than a lot of people around here, especially right wingers.

The issues of mental health and excessive police force are just way to morally and ethically challenging for most right wingers to approach without their heads exploding, especially when the issues are co-joined as they so often are.

So you are not qualified. Thanks.

[Keepitsimple]

I'm not drifting off topic at all.

Providing health care leadership to the Provinces is a clearly a Federal matter and the Federal government is well aware of widespread deficiencies in provincial funding as it relates to mental health.

The government is clearly falling down on all four points. The leadership example it is setting right now is that spending huge gobs of public money on politically motivated reaction to very rare events as opposed to things like the demonstrated mental health needs of up to 4 out of 5 Canadians, including police and veterans is okay.

Drifting even more now. The days of the Provinces and Feds fighting over Healthcare funding are over - thank God. There was nothing more frustrating than seeing provinces constantly whining about funding when they themselves did nothing to improve the efficiency of the delivery of Healthcare. The funding is now legislated and clear - as is the responsibility for delivering care. Your claim that 80% of the public require Mental Health services is nuts, pardon the pun.....and gobs of politically motivated money for very rare events.....you're referring to what?

[jacee]

You're drifting off topic.....the statistics I provided show the occurrences of a mentally ill person being killed by police is very rare

police-shootings-often-involve-mental-illness-and-ill-prepared-officers-

As for money, the major city's police forces have invested significant amounts in training their officers in handling and de-escalating incidents with the mentally ill.

Why isn't it working?

.

[eyeball]

Your claim that 80% of the public require Mental Health services is nuts, pardon the pun.....

I'll give you that one, I didn't flesh that out enough to reflect that 4 out 5 Canadians will suffer a mental illness at some time in their life.

and gobs of politically motivated money for very rare events.....you're referring to what?

Terror attacks. I won't be surprised these do become more numerous because of the money we're wasting inviting them.

[poochy]

How close was he?

Was he coming at them?

What about the fence between them?

What about the house they 'assumed' he was breaking into ... with a shovel ... HIS OWN HOUSE!!!

He wasn't psychotic: He was being treated for depression.

Don't know the facts?

Don't make them up.

.

Facts:

The police were called to help someone who was suicidal.

Chasing him with guns drawn is not exactly the best approach.

Why the hell didn't they call the crisis team while looking for him in the half hour + between his first and second suicide attempts?

The cops tracked him down and treated him like a criminal instead of a person in need of help, when they had plenty of time to have the crisis team there.

.

In the real world it is difficult to make all of those judgement calls at once, and the police are not paid to put their lives at risk, strange but true.

[guyser]

In the real world it is difficult to make all of those judgement calls at once,

True.

.... and the police are not paid to put their lives at risk, strange but true.

Why do they keep telling us that they do?

[Big Guy]

I doubt very much that any law enforcement officer would shoot somebody because they are trying to kill themselves. They shoot to protect themselves or protect others in the area who they perceive to be in danger. I do not believe that people go into law enforcement because they like killing.