Police are shooting the mentally ill

[jacee]

In the real world it is difficult to make all of those judgement calls at once, and the police are not paid to put their lives at risk, strange but true.

Then they should have just backed off and waited for the mental health crisis team ... which includes a detective trained for such situations.

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[Wilber]

What mental health crisis team?

The great majority of police officers will never shoot anyone during their careers.

[eyeball]

What mental health crisis team?

Damn good question.

[jacee]

What mental health crisis team?

http://coasthamilton.ca/?page_id=57

The great majority of police officers will never shoot anyone during their careers.

With over 70,000 police officers in Canada,

I should certainly hope not.

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[On Guard for Thee]

Drifting even more now. The days of the Provinces and Feds fighting over Healthcare funding are over - thank God. There was nothing more frustrating than seeing provinces constantly whining about funding when they themselves did nothing to improve the efficiency of the delivery of Healthcare. The funding is now legislated and clear - as is the responsibility for delivering care. Your claim that 80% of the public require Mental Health services is nuts, pardon the pun.....and gobs of politically motivated money for very rare events.....you're referring to what?

Are you kidding. Wake up ad smell the roses, the fight is at its height.

[Wilber]

[quote name="jacee" post="1028053"

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http://coasthamilton.ca/?page_id=57

With over 70,000 police officers in Canada,

I should certainly hope not.

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Wow, one hospital in one city. Good for them. Doesn't do the cops anywhere else much good.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Wilber

[Smallc]

Are you kidding. Wake up ad smell the roses, the fight is at its height.

If you were 12, I can see how you'd view it that way.

[On Guard for Thee]

If you were 12, I can see how you'd view it that way.

You must be 12. Harper hasnt sat down with the provinces for about 6 years and hes gutting health care.

[Smallc]

You must be 12. Harper hasnt sat down with the provinces for about 6 years and hes gutting health care.

Funding spats were commonplace before Martin put in place the 10 year program (why would anyone sit down again?). Now that Harper has renewed that program (albeit with a lower and completely reasonable escalator) the peaceful status quo will continue.

[On Guard for Thee]

Funding spats were commonplace before Martin put in place the 10 year program (why would anyone sit down again?). Now that Harper has renewed that program (albeit with a lower and completely reasonable escalator) the peaceful status quo will continue.

You deem no communications to be peaceful status quo. You are totally in Harpers court with that comment.

[Bonam]

If someone agrees to give me money every year, with it increasing each year by a fixed percentage, for a good number of years into the future, why do I need to communicate with them continuously? I'll take the money and do what I was tasked to do with it. Do you go to your boss every day and discuss your salary? Or do you negotiate it once in a while and then spend the rest of the time doing what you've been tasked to do? What is there to talk about?

[On Guard for Thee]

If someone agrees to give me money every year, with it increasing each year by a fixed percentage, for a good number of years into the future, why do I need to communicate with them continuously? I'll take the money and do what I was tasked to do with it. Do you go to your boss every day and discuss your salary? Or do you negotiate it once in a while and then spend the rest of the time doing what you've been tasked to do? What is there to talk about?

Big difference between every day and every 6 years or so. Over that period of time populations age and relocate. A proper custodian of the healthcare system most of us believe in would manage things better. Harper just wants to make his budget numbers look good.

[Bonam]

When it comes to mucking around with budgets, less is more. Set things on autopilot and forget it. The less governments meddle around, the better. A continuous, defined, stable source of funding that increases continuously over time is about the best thing possible for any organization. Far better than uncertainty over the results of negotiations every couple years.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Bonam

[Smallc]

Big difference between every day and every 6 years or so. Over that period of time populations age and relocate. A proper custodian of the healthcare system most of us believe in would manage things better. Harper just wants to make his budget numbers look good.

You have no evidence that the majority of provinces even want to talk about it. They're quite happy with the status quo. Their own increases haven't even matched the new lower rate that Ottawa is setting.

[Smallc]

You deem no communications to be peaceful status quo. You are totally in Harpers court with that comment.

Clearly that's why I gave all the credit to Paul Martin. Your partisanship blinds you.

[On Guard for Thee]

You have no evidence that the majority of provinces even want to talk about it. They're quite happy with the status quo. Their own increases haven't even matched the new lower rate that Ottawa is setting.

Boy are you ever out of the loop. The provinces continually ask Harper to sit down, to no avail.Take a look at the last part of your statement.

[Smallc]

Ottawa is kicking in larger increases? And

[jacee]

Wow, one hospital in one city. Good for them. Doesn't do the cops anywhere else much good.

It's the city where Steve Mesic was shot.

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[Wilber]

It's the city where Steve Mesic was shot.

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While limited, the Hamilton unit looks like a good start though somewhat limited and I think most police forces would welcome something like it. As far as Mesic is concerned, I can't find anything regarding the inquest's conclusions. Have they been published yet? It kind of looks like a case of suicide by cop but that would be jumping to conclusions before the results are in. Edited February 4, 2015 by Wilber

[jacee]

While limited, the Hamilton unit looks like a good start though somewhat limited and I think most police forces would welcome something like it. As far as Mesic is concerned, I can't find anything regarding the inquest's conclusions. Have they been published yet? It kind of looks like a case of suicide by cop but that would be jumping to conclusions before the results are in.

Just because a sick person thinks he wants police to kill him doesn't mean they should, or can without sanction.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/homicide-or-suicide-mesic-inquest-jury-can-t-decide-1.2676830

In the end, an inquest jury couldnt definitively say. The Hamilton mans death was ruled undetermined ...

...

the evidence from police was very inconsistent, "

...

Recommendations

5. That Hamilton police monitor the Toronto police lapel camera pilot project, and implement something similar if it gets good results.

I have no idea why the police didn't call COAST.

[Wilber]

Just because a sick person thinks he wants police to kill him doesn't mean they should, or can without sanction. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/homicide-or-suicide-mesic-inquest-jury-can-t-decide-1.2676830 In the end, an inquest jury couldnt definitively say. The Hamilton mans death was ruled undetermined ...

... the evidence from police was very inconsistent, "

...

Recommendations

5. That Hamilton police monitor the Toronto police lapel camera pilot project, and implement something similar if it gets good results.

I have no idea why the police didn't call COAST.

No it doesn't but it does limit options. If someone is coming at you with a shovel, waiting for a shrink to arrive might not be possible. If the person is determined to get himself shot, what other options do you have than running away hoping he isn't faster than you. It is quite possible this could have handled better and hopfully any recommendations will be acted on but COAST is just a step in the right direction, it is far from being a fits all solution when it comes to police interaction with the mentally ill. Edited February 4, 2015 by Wilber

[eyeball]

If the person is determined to get himself shot, what other options do you have than running away hoping he isn't faster than you.

This is where I expect cops to shoot for the legs.

Hatch asked how could a man with five hollow-point bullets in his chest and one in his back walk 30 feet with a shovel in his hands before he died, while a police constable stood in one spot instead of attempting to tackle Mesic, because he was afraid to trip.

I also expect psychological screening to weed out the cowards.

[jacee]

No it doesn't but it does limit options. If someone is coming at you with a shovel, waiting for a shrink to arrive might not be possible. If the person is determined to get himself shot, what other options do you have than running away hoping he isn't faster than you. It is quite possible this could have handled better and hopfully any recommendations will be acted on but COAST is just a step in the right direction, it is far from being a fits all solution when it comes to police interaction with the mentally ill.

They didn't call COAST, despite having a half hour+ to do so after his first suicide attempt.COAST includes a specially trained plainclothes detective. Read the team description.

Police officers lie and cover up for each other.

One of the "inconsistencies" from police:

He was 5' from them when they shot him, walked 30 feet away from them with multiple shots in him, then dropped dead.

BUT

There was no blood trail to back up their story.

-> They lied about how close he was.

Another:

They couldn't back off and give him space as they were trapped between a bush and a fence.

Trapped? They got there through the bush.

Make all the pitiful excuses you want, Wilbur. This was an avoidable tragedy, a result of poorly trained gun happy police officers treating a mentally ill person like a criminal.

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Edited February 4, 2015 by jacee

[Wilber]

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They didn't call COAST, despite having a half hour+ to do so after his first suicide attempt.COAST includes a specially trained plainclothes detective. Read the team description.

Police officers lie and cover up for each other.

One of the "inconsistencies" from police:

He was 5' from them when they shot him, walked 30 feet away from them with multiple shots in him, then dropped dead.

BUT There was no blood trail to back up their story.

-> They lied about how close he was.

Another:

They couldn't back off and give him space as they were trapped between a bush and a fence.

Trapped? They got there through the bush.

Make all the pitiful excuses you want, Wilbur. This was an avoidable tragedy, a result of poorly trained gun happy police officers treating a mentally ill person like a criminal.

.

Why have an inquest with a jury? They should have just asked you.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Wilber

[jbg]

My son just checked himself into the emergency ward to try and get help for his deteriorating state of mind the other night. He could sense he was slipping and wanted to avoid being taken in by the police like last time which was pretty traumatic for everyone involved, especially him.

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Like I said, the problem of how to better treat mental illness has right-wing conservative and especially Conservative sensibilities plastered all over it.

I have strong feelings about how poor mental health services and professionals are. Even the ones the wealthy use are not that good.

The left is not better than the right on this. Remember, it was McGovern, not a right-winger like Reagan that dumped Eagleton, a successfully treated victim of bipolar disorder from the Presidential ticket.

Society's attitude on this subject is disgraceful.