How much are we too weep for Greyson and Loubani?

[Boges]

I know, by Canadian standards, what happened to them is an atrocity. But they weren't in Canada, they were in Egypt in the midst of a political coupe and they supported the losing side.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/two-canadians-held-in-egypt-given-extended-detention-family-says/article14589619/

Late Sunday evening, the Prime Minister's Office released a statement saying: "In the absence of charges, Dr. Loubani and Mr. Greyson should be released immediately."

This weekend, as the two marked being held without charge for 45 days, prosecutors issued an order to detain them for another 45 days. Egypt is trying to build a case against the two Canadians and hundreds of other prisoners rounded up at the same time.

The two Canadians say they had stopped over in Cairo in mid-August en route to Gaza, where they had planned to make a short film about humanitarian relief efforts. On Aug. 16, however, they were arrested after they witnessed a protest that turned deadly, as dozens of dissenters were shot.

Canada is calling for their release, but what else can they do? They went to this part of the world for political reasons and they got caught up in an unfortunate situation. But they should bare the responsibility for getting themselves in that situation.

The irony is that one of the men is a Gay activist. In Egypt, is not being Gay a crime enough? But they're also very anti-Israel. I would put forward the argument they would not have experienced the treatment they have if they were in Israel at the time.

I know everything Ezra says is dismissed immediately by some of you but he wrote about them today.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/09/30/whole-truth-hardly-media-party-spins-quite-a-tale-about-its-two-latest-heroes

They're supporters of Hamas, Do they think Hamas treat opponents any better than they've been treated?

Edited October 1, 2013 by Boges

[eyeball]

I would have thought the absence of due process in their case is enough to weep about. Justice is supposed to be blind not injustice.

[Boges]

I would have thought the absence of due process in their case is enough to weep about. Justice is supposed to be blind not injustice.

Sure, in Canada.

They willfully went to Egypt and got involved in a political crisis.

[eyeball]

Okay so you and Ezra want to make this all about them and not about due process. How that exactly contributes to making the world a better place is anyone's guess.

[Boges]

Okay so you and Ezra want to make this all about them and not about due process. How that exactly contributes to making the world a better place is anyone's guess.

So the due process and horrible political conditions in country's like these are only to be taken seriously when Canadians get caught up in them? Is it a surprise to anyone that countries like Egypt would treat political opponents in such a manor?

[eyeball]

No, and due process should still be taken seriously everywhere, all the time.

[bud]

ezra and bogus would be singing a different tune if these guys were not advocating for justice and human rights of palestinians.

[Boges]

ezra and bogus would be singing a different tune if these guys were not advocating for justice and human rights of palestinians.

I could flip that on its head. Would there be such an outcry about their imprisonment if they were there on some sort of Christian missionary trip and imprisoned for threatening Islam?

FTR the CPC has called for their release. What else are they to do? invade Egypt?

[Black Dog]

I know, by Canadian standards, what happened to them is an atrocity. But they weren't in Canada, they were in Egypt in the midst of a political coupe and they supported the losing side.

http://www.torontosu...o-latest-heroes

They're supporters of Hamas, Do they think Hamas treat opponents any better than they've been treated?

None of which has any bearing whatsoever on things.

FTR, if you or Ezra were being held by a military dictatorship somewhere, I'd want the government to do everything in its power to bring about your releases.

Just kidding. Screw Ezra.

[bud]

I could flip that on its head. Would there be such an outcry about their imprisonment if they were there on some sort of Christian missionary trip and imprisoned for threatening Islam?

FTR the CPC has called for their release. What else are they to do? invade Egypt?

it's you and ezra who are playing the shrugging game by saying: "oh well, it's their fault for getting themselves into the situation and OMG, they support palestinians,"

[Boges]

it's you and ezra who are playing the shrugging game by saying: "oh well, it's their fault for getting themselves into the situation and OMG, they support palestinians,"

I think the point Ezra is making is that the reason there is political outrage over the incident is exactly because they were there to support Palestine and if they were there to say.

[Black Dog]

I think the point Ezra is making is that the reason there is political outrage over the incident is exactly because they were there to support Palestine and if they were there to say.

I think the outrage is over the fact that Canadian citizens are being held without trial or charge by a military dictatorship.

[Boges]

Sure it's outrageous. But plenty of the realities of the legal system in these countries are outrageous. Are we selectively being "more" outraged because Left-wing Canadians are being caught up in it.

Isn't the whole idea that homosexuality is illegal in all countries but Israel in the region outrageous enough?

Apparently the Egyptians have a long listen of allegations.

http://o.canada.com/news/loubani-greyson-egypt-charge-murder/

Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird has met with his Egyptian counterpart to ask for the release of the men, and the Prime Minister’s Office released a statement calling for their detention to end.

The full list of allegations reported by The Star includes:

* murder

* intention to kill

* aiding and abetting murder

* using explosives against the Azbakiya police station (in central Cairo)

* attacking the police station

* terrorizing citizens

* possession of unlicensed firearms and ammunition

* use of force and violence against police personnel

* participating in a crime that resulted in a police injury

* harming public security

* damaging public and private property

* participating in a gathering that prevented authorities from performing their duties

* obstructing public transportation

Edited October 1, 2013 by Boges

[Black Dog]

Sure it's outrageous. But plenty of the realities of the legal system in these countries are outrageous. Are we selectively being "more" outraged because Left-wing Canadians are being caught up in it.

Can you provide examples where they were right wingers and noone was outraged?

Isn't the whole idea that homosexuality is illegal in all countries but Israel in the region outrageous enough?

Relevance?

Apparently the Egyptians have a long listen of allegations.

Oh yeah, seems legit.

[Boges]

FTR, if you or Ezra were being held by a military dictatorship somewhere, I'd want the government to do everything in its power to bring about your releases.

Just kidding. Screw Ezra.

But not me? Aww Shucks.

And you'd be surprised how little power it seems Canada has to help people in trouble abroad. This was a well publicized story a few years. back.

http://voices.yahoo.com/canadian-teen-held-cuba-foreign-affairs-following-6359290.html

Canadian teen Cody LeCompte is being held in Cuba pending the outcome of an investigation into a traffic accident that took place while he and his mother were vacationing there with family members in May 2010. When he tried to board an airplane home at the end of his trip, airport officials would not let him leave the country. In all likelihood the 19-year-old youth will not be allowed to return to Canada for at least another month, and information supplied by foreign affairs suggests it could be a much longer wait. The traffic accident was caused by a dump truck that slammed into LeCompte's rental car at an intersection. He was seriously injured, leaving his mother worrying for a time if he would survive at all.

Edited October 1, 2013 by Boges

[Boges]

Can you provide examples where they were right wingers and noone was outraged?

Nope. Not sure they'd go into war zones like that for political reasons though. I am shocked there's no high-profile examples of Christian missionaries getting caught in Muslim countries. It seems they only go to African nations were Christianity is the top religion.

Relevance?

Just that people are selective about their outrage. The irony is they went to protest Israel. Something like this would likely never have happened had they been in Israel.

Oh yeah, seems legit.

Of course it's not, but how can Canada refute the allegations? We don't have any evidence to the contrary.

I think this story brings to light the issue of how much are we to expect Canada to help citizens abroad. The Canadians in Lebanon that asked to be saved by Canada in 2006 are a good example of this. Many hadn't lived in Canada for years.

Edited October 1, 2013 by Boges

[Black Dog]

Just that people are selective about their outrage. The irony is they went to protest Israel. Something like this would likely never have happened had they been in Israel.

Yeah, there they might have been bulldozed.

Of course it's not, but how can Canada refute the allegations? We don't have any evidence to the contrary.

We can't, but I don't think there's much of a chance these allegations are based on anything. They've been under arrest for more than a month and a half and are only facing charges now.

I think this story brings to light the issue of how much are we to expect Canada to help citizens abroad. The Canadians in Lebanon that asked to be saved by Canada in 2006 are a good example of this. Many hadn't lived in Canada for years.

I think they are different scenarios though. If someone is a citizen and resident, why shouldn't the government help?

[scribblet]

Of course we should try to help them as being held like that without due process is wrong. We shouldn't be weeping as much as first thought now that I've read about their activities.

They were out in Cairo after a known curfew in an area where the Muslim Brotherhood had been fighting. No surprise they were picked up, but I also wonder if Egypt was tracking them being aware of their activities.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/09/13/martin-gladstone-where-is-the-gay-campaign-to-boycott-egypt/

excerpt by Martin Gladstone a Toronto lawyer and gay rights activist

The irony of Greyson’s detention in an anti-gay Muslim country has not been lost on many in the greater Canadian gay community. We see Israel as what is right about the Middle East. Gays are protected under Israeli law. They serve in the military, can adopt children, and sit in Parliament (The Knesset) along with Arabs and other minorities. There are free elections in Israel, a vibrant free press, due process, constitutional protections of speech and association. Gays are not publicly hung, women are not stoned. It is a progressive liberal democracy under enormous daily challenges to survive.

http://frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreenfield/member-of-queers-against-israel-arrested-by-egypt-before-trying-to-cross-into-hamas-gaza/

Tarek Loubani is an ISM activist, a pro-terrorist group linked to several Hamas acts of terrorism. Egypt may have done Greyson a favor, considering Hamas’ views on gay men.

[carepov]

I know, by Canadian standards, what happened to them is an atrocity. But they weren't in Canada, they were in Egypt in the midst of a political coupe and they supported the losing side.

Canada is calling for their release, but what else can they do? They went to this part of the world for political reasons and they got caught up in an unfortunate situation. But they should bare the responsibility for getting themselves in that situation.

The irony is that one of the men is a Gay activist. In Egypt, is not being Gay a crime enough? But they're also very anti-Israel. I would put forward the argument they would not have experienced the treatment they have if they were in Israel at the time.

They're supporters of Hamas, Do they think Hamas treat opponents any better than they've been treated?

First: two people have been tortured and are living in brutal conditions.

It does not matter what their beliefs are.

It does not matter what their sexual orientation is.

It does not matter what their travel plans were.

It does not matter that they would have been treated better in Israel or worse under Hamas.

Actually it should not even matter whether or not they committed a crime.

We should be outraged that any humans are treated this way.

Canadian diplomats should do everything in their power to have them treated humanely.

Second: it sure looks like they are being held unjustly and did not break any laws. They should be charged and given due process or released immediately.

http://e-activist.com/ea-action/action?ea.client.id=1770&ea.campaign.id=22879

***

What do you mean by: "But they should bare the responsibility for getting themselves in that situation."

Edited October 1, 2013 by carepov

[eyeball]

Are we selectively being "more" outraged because Left-wing Canadians are being caught up in it.

I only get more outraged when you right-wingers start weighing in with your bullshit.

Thanks for pointing out how left wing these two are. I did not know that until this morning.

[Boges]

What do you mean by: "But they should bare the responsibility for getting themselves in that situation."

I'm not saying what these men are going through isn't horribly unjust. And hopefully they are released if not charged with some legit crime.

All I'm saying is that if you go to a country where the government's human rights records are sketchy, it shouldn't be surprising if your human rights are violated. Especially if you're going there with political motives.

Edited October 1, 2013 by Boges

[eyeball]

All I'm saying is that if you go to a country where the government's human rights records are sketchy, it shouldn't be surprising if your human rights are violated.

I could have sworn you were also saying Canada shouldn't concern itself with left-wing Muslim homosexuals that run afoul of military dictatorships.

[carepov]

I'm not saying what these men are going through isn't horribly unjust. And hopefully they are released if not charged with some legit crime.

All I'm saying is that if you go to a country where the government's human rights records are sketchy, it shouldn't be surprising if your human rights are violated. Especially if you're going there with political motives.

Oh OK, I'm glad I asked, I though you were saying something like "they deserved what they got".

[Boges]

Nope, that's not what I'm saying at all.

It appears what they're going through is Hell and that's very unfortunate.

I guess my question for discussion here is are we to contend that a Canadian citizenship should act as a Get out of Jail free card if people run a foul in a country that doesn't share our values in regards to justice?

Edited October 1, 2013 by Boges

[scribblet]

I'm not saying what these men are going through isn't horribly unjust. And hopefully they are released if not charged with some legit crime.

All I'm saying is that if you go to a country where the government's human rights records are sketchy, it shouldn't be surprising if your human rights are violated. Especially if you're going there with political motives.

I think that's the point here isn't it. They weren't just innocent bystanders, they did have political motives and got caught up in it. Or so Egypt believes.