Innovation in Public Schools

[Wilber]

My everyday experiences with young people behind cash registers say otherwise.

[jacee]

My everyday experiences with young people behind cash registers say otherwise.

Then tell their employers to train them the way you want it done.

Canadian employers spend very little money on training, compared to other industrialized nations. They whine and complain and expect schools and the government to do that for them.

[Mighty AC]

My everyday experiences with young people behind cash registers say otherwise.

So thinks every generation about the next.

[GostHacked]

That's not a concern at all. The methods that are generally used only help teach math to a wide base, right ? Specialist math, engineering and calculus is taught at a higher level and its methods persist.

Well since your base is the basic math, and if that is taught through these new discovery teaching methods, then those students are going to be in a lot of trouble when trying the higher math.

What you learn today, helps you tomorrow.

[Michael Hardner]

Well since your base is the basic math, and if that is taught through these new discovery teaching methods, then those students are going to be in a lot of trouble when trying the higher math.

What you learn today, helps you tomorrow.

So what do you think it going to happen, exactly ? That university level calculus courses will start failing the bulk of their students, or that students will figure it out ? I think the concern expressed on this thread is about general math learning for the general population.

[Argus]

So what do you think it going to happen, exactly ? That university level calculus courses will start failing the bulk of their students, or that students will figure it out ? I think the concern expressed on this thread is about general math learning for the general population.

As in one of the cites I've already posted, Universities are having to run remedial math courses for incoming students because they were not taught properly during their primary/high school years.

[Argus]

So thinks every generation about the next.

Ontario's math scores have been deteriorating for five years. Only 57% of those tested meet the standards.

Btw, if you don't understand what "57%" means, you're probably one of those taking the new math...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/editorials/the-trend-to-two-tier-math-teaching/article14425445/

[GostHacked]

So what do you think it going to happen, exactly ? That university level calculus courses will start failing the bulk of their students, or that students will figure it out ? I think the concern expressed on this thread is about general math learning for the general population.

Not just in math but everything else. I have no problem with creative thinking and new problem solving, but that is once you understand the basics on how some of these things work. One must understand that 2+2=4 before one can move on to higher maths. If you are letting the kids kind their own way to 4, then it's going to be a much longer process. I always say that education needs a recognition process. If a kid excels at a certain topic, then throw more of that topic at the kid. Instead we have a huge watered down student population. Jacks of many trades, masters of none.

English has structure, punctuation, grammar and much more. You need to understand the basics in order to expand and get creative with it.

You can get creative with processes and problem solving once you understand how the basics work.

[Michael Hardner]

Not just in math but everything else.

Well - this thread is about Math, mostly. Are there examples of other things being taught this way ?

If there's a problem with English grammar, then it may be in how they're executing this plan - or that higher grades aren't holding students to task for spelling, grammar.

[Wilber]

Then tell their employers to train them the way you want it done.

Canadian employers spend very little money on training, compared to other industrialized nations. They whine and complain and expect schools and the government to do that for them.

You can't be serious. You expect employers to teach elementary arithmatic so kids know how to make change from a $10 bill? Sure kids need to encouraged to be creative but they also need to be taught to function in society at a basic level and any system that doesn't is short changing them.

[Bonam]

That's not a concern at all. The methods that are generally used only help teach math to a wide base, right ? Specialist math, engineering and calculus is taught at a higher level and its methods persist.

For how long? Once the professors at universities are the same people who were brought up and educated "creatively", they may apply the same philosophy to their university classes. Creativity and innovation are very important, to be sure, but so is an understanding of the basics, and some of those basics are supposed to come from high school and from 1st year courses that are taught to a general rather than specialized audience.

If someone shows up for their major in third year engineering and all their math that they know up to that point, that was taught to a "wide base", was essentially bogus, and all of a sudden they are expected to get the right answers which they've never had to do before, they may be in a lot of trouble.

[Michael Hardner]

For how long? Once the professors at universities are the same people who were brought up and educated "creatively", they may apply the same philosophy to their university classes. Creativity and innovation are very important, to be sure, but so is an understanding of the basics, and some of those basics are supposed to come from high school and from 1st year courses that are taught to a general rather than specialized audience.

This was the concern about the 'new math' in the 1960s. No, specialist science is a different animal. At the university level, you're not even "taught" per se. They show you the material and you figure it out on your own. Even 1st year general maths wouldn't be taught this way.

The methods described in this thread are used to teach younger students, trying to learn how they learn.

If someone shows up for their major in third year engineering and all their math that they know up to that point, that was taught to a "wide base", was essentially bogus, and all of a sudden they are expected to get the right answers which they've never had to do before, they may be in a lot of trouble.

Yes, and so in 5, 10 years it follows that ALL of the university engineering students will fail, right ? It's not going to happen.

[socialist]

In early and middle years classes, teachers don't have to have an extensive background to teach math, as I surely don't. But with the discovery math approach, I am seen more as a facilitator of learning than a lecturer of knowledge. Kids who discover their own strategies for solving math go on to be the best and brightest and most successful. When I was interviewed, no one asked me to demonstrate my knowledge of math. They knew I had completed the required math methods course at university. I agree with discovery math, as much research proves that it is a much better in allowing learners to UNDERSTAND math, instead of just useless rote memorization.

[jacee]

In early and middle years classes, teachers don't have to have an extensive background to teach math, as I surely don't. But with the discovery math approach, I am seen more as a facilitator of learning than a lecturer of knowledge. Kids who discover their own strategies for solving math go on to be the best and brightest and most successful. When I was interviewed, no one asked me to demonstrate my knowledge of math. They knew I had completed the required math methods course at university. I agree with discovery math, as much research proves that it is a much better in allowing learners to UNDERSTAND math, instead of just useless rote memorization.

Socialist I think you make a mistake by setting up this false dichotomy of "discovery math ... instead of rote memorization".

You are simply inviting opposition.

It's not an 'either/or' issue: Well rounded students need both.

Students will be much more successful in 'discovering' solutions if they are adept at seeing patterns in the numbers, and that comes from knowing number facts.

Memorizing number facts isn't a 'method' of teaching math: It's a skill that contributes to success in discovering mathematical solutions.

[Topaz]

I'm wondering how long before technology will reduce the number of teachers and if "homeschooling" through computers will be the normal in 20 years?

[Bonam]

Yes, and so in 5, 10 years it follows that ALL of the university engineering students will fail, right ? It's not going to happen.

No. The ones with an interest/gift in the field will always find a way to succeed. But the dire and debilitating shortage of competent technical professionals in the West will continue to grow worse.

[Michael Hardner]

I'm wondering how long before technology will reduce the number of teachers and if "homeschooling" through computers will be the normal in 20 years?

Computers were 'normal' 20 years ago. And as I have mentioned, at one point in time people thought children could learn through television. Not so.

[Michael Hardner]

No. The ones with an interest/gift in the field will always find a way to succeed. But the dire and debilitating shortage of competent technical professionals in the West will continue to grow worse.

Maybe so, but I don't think a causal link to our education systems is the culprit. How many scientists and programmers did they need 50 years ago ? There's just more demand today, IMO.

[Wilber]

In early and middle years classes, teachers don't have to have an extensive background to teach math, as I surely don't. But with the discovery math approach, I am seen more as a facilitator of learning than a lecturer of knowledge. Kids who discover their own strategies for solving math go on to be the best and brightest and most successful. When I was interviewed, no one asked me to demonstrate my knowledge of math. They knew I had completed the required math methods course at university. I agree with discovery math, as much research proves that it is a much better in allowing learners to UNDERSTAND math, instead of just useless rote memorization.

Memorization is not useless, we have to memorize many things to function in society.

[cybercoma]

No. The ones with an interest/gift in the field will always find a way to succeed. But the dire and debilitating shortage of competent technical professionals in the West will continue to grow worse.

That shortage is an excuse by the baby boomers to not give a chance to younger professionals and prolong their own retirements. It's BS. There is no shortage. There's just a ton of unemployment amongst young adults with full qualifications.

[Topaz]

Computers were 'normal' 20 years ago. And as I have mentioned, at one point in time people thought children could learn through television. Not so.

Didn't u watch Sesame Street?

[Wilber]

That shortage is an excuse by the baby boomers to not give a chance to younger professionals and prolong their own retirements. It's BS. There is no shortage. There's just a ton of unemployment amongst young adults with full qualifications.

It's a conundrum. One part says they are living longer and putting too much pressure on pensions so should retire later. The other says they are hanging on too long and keeping others back. What to do.

[jacee]

It's a conundrum. One part says they are living longer and putting too much pressure on pensions so should retire later. The other says they are hanging on too long and keeping others back. What to do.

So true. Maybe the gov should encourage more boomers to retire & free up good jobs for youth.

[jacee]

It's a conundrum. One part says they are living longer and putting too much pressure on pensions so should retire later. The other says they are hanging on too long and keeping others back. What to do.

So true. Maybe the gov should encourage more boomers to retire & free up good jobs for youth. Then the boomers can do their fast food jobs for extra cash.

[Wilber]

So true. Maybe the gov should encourage more boomers to retire & free up good jobs for youth. Then the boomers can do their fast food jobs for extra cash.

How would that solve the pension problem?