Anti-Christian Bigotry?

[Bonam]

And here's something for you selective-outrage people to read and then shrug your shoulders at because it's not a christian wing nut:

What selective outrage? All religions are idiotic, Islam perhaps most of all, and it rightfully gets slammed for it in many many threads here, with only a few moral relativists jumping to the defense. But Christianity has much greater influence here, where we happen to live, and they are the ones trying to push theocratic laws down our throats (mostly talking US, much less of that in Canada). Hence it deserves strong criticism as well. But the most general and frequent complaints about religion that you hear from this forum's atheist majority are applicable uniformly to most religions, including both Christianity and Islam, so what is your point exactly?

Edited September 12, 2013 by Bonam

[Argus]

IBut contrast that with the kind of wrath that abrahamites and their leaders have unleashed on those that dare to oppose them, both in the past and in much of the world today.

Excuse me? Abrahamites?

[Argus]

I don't see a difference between criticizing faith, political leanings, environmental views, taste in movies, music, sports, etc. All ideas should be discussed; the good ones are elevated the bad trounced and discarded.

Speaking a fairly secular fellow, it is one thing to mock political beliefs, or something like the 911 truthers and their fanatical insistence on ignoring logic, but quite another to mock someone's religious beliefs. You can question the latter, but I believe there is a requirement for a more respectful stance.

[Bonam]

You can question the latter, but I believe there is a requirement for a more respectful stance.

No. Respect is earned. I see no reason to be more respectful to people's unsubstantiated beliefs. People do not have the right to never encounter something they might find offensive in their lives. Too freaking bad if someone's feelings get hurt. Grow some thicker skin.

[dre]

Excuse me? Abrahamites?

Yes those would be followers of the 3 major abrahamic religions.

[dre]

So just what do you believe mocking one's belief's is? Good sport?

I would just call it a debate or argument in most cases. Theres some mockery going in both directions, and its normal for someones feelings to get a bit hurt when you tell them something that they have a very strong belief in is bunk.

I think its a non issue.

[sharkman]

I don't see a difference between criticizing faith, political leanings, environmental views, taste in movies, music, sports, etc. All ideas should be discussed; the good ones are elevated the bad trounced and discarded.

But criticizing is not mocking. You've missed the point.

Mocking someone is a form of bullying. Bullying has only recently been recognized for the harm that it can do. Kids get mocked for their appearance, their race their sexual preference and their religion. It's wrong, and that several of you can not see this simple fact does not make it less so. It just makes you blind in this area because you enjoy doing it. And yes, it's bigotry.

Now I'm a big boy, and I don't particularly care if some strangers on the internet find some things about me to mock. But the principal is important here. Questioning or debating religion's merits or lack thereof is fine. Picking on someone because of them shows a possible malicious attitude. If one mocked an openly gay person on these pages, then perhaps you would see the light.

[sharkman]

No. Respect is earned. I see no reason to be more respectful to people's unsubstantiated beliefs. People do not have the right to never encounter something they might find offensive in their lives. Too freaking bad if someone's feelings get hurt. Grow some thicker skin.

People have a right to their side of the sidewalk. When walking on one past someone, you make room for them without thinking whether they are skinny or fat, man or woman, paper delivery or lawyer. You don't care what they are, you move over a bit if needed. That's simple respect for their right to walk on the sidewalk past you. If they shove you, then they lose that sort of respect.

Most of us offer people the same respect on a forum. We accept people as they are and read what they think about various things. It's simple tolerance for others. Some people lose respect by what they say and how they behave around here. It's sad to hear that people lose respect in your eyes simply for having a faith.

Edited September 12, 2013 by sharkman

[Black Dog]

Speaking a fairly secular fellow, it is one thing to mock political beliefs, or something like the 911 truthers and their fanatical insistence on ignoring logic, but quite another to mock someone's religious beliefs. You can question the latter, but I believe there is a requirement for a more respectful stance.

Why? If I can mock one group because of their "fanatical insistence on ignoring logic when it comes to 9-11, why can't I mock another's fanatical insistence on ignoring logic when it comes to, say, evolution or family planning policies?

Now I'm a big boy, and I don't particularly care if some strangers on the internet find some things about me to mock. But the principal is important here. Questioning or debating religion's merits or lack thereof is fine. Picking on someone because of them shows a possible malicious attitude. If one mocked an openly gay person on these pages, then perhaps you would see the light.

You realize most of the so-called anti-Christian posts are just that?

[Michael Hardner]

Why? If I can mock one group because of their "fanatical insistence on ignoring logic when it comes to 9-11, why can't I mock another's fanatical insistence on ignoring logic when it comes to, say, evolution or family planning policies?

On MLW, you're not supposed to be mocking them - but simply taking apart their argument through discussion and debate.

If a religious person stated "I realize that my belief in miracles [for example] is an act of faith and not logic" then you wouldn't have much else to discuss with them on MLW. Where religious people get into trouble, IMO, is that some insist that there is logic in their beliefs. They are therefore forced to enter the arena of logical debate. I don't see why they feel the need to do this but if they do, then there are grounds for debate on those points.

[Mighty AC]

People have a right to their side of the sidewalk. When walking on one past someone, you make room for them without thinking whether they are skinny or fat, man or woman, paper delivery or lawyer. You don't care what they are, you move over a bit if needed. That's simple respect for their right to walk on the sidewalk past you. If they shove you, then they lose that sort of respect.

Most of us offer people the same respect on a forum. We accept people as they are and read what they think about various things. Some people lose respect by what they say and how they behave around here. It's sad to hear that people lose respect in your eyes simply for having a faith.

We don't expect our political views to be respected, why do we demand it for our supernatural beliefs? Our culture traditionally provided a protective cocoon for religion; but why? Take God, Allah, Odin, Santa, ghosts, karma, and unicorns. In your opinion does belief in all of these items deserve the same level of respect?

[sharkman]

We don't expect our political views to be respected, why do we demand it for our supernatural beliefs? Our culture traditionally provided a protective cocoon for religion; but why? Take God, Allah, Odin, Santa, ghosts, karma, and unicorns. In your opinion does belief in all of these items deserve the same level of respect?

If you look at my post, I'm talking about basic respect for the person, not their views.

[Black Dog]

On MLW, you're not supposed to be mocking them - but simply taking apart their argument through discussion and debate.

Most of them aren't on MLW. Closet thing we had was logic-proof and thius ripe for parody.

If a religious person stated "I realize that my belief in miracles [for example] is an act of faith and not logic" then you wouldn't have much else to discuss with them on MLW. Where religious people get into trouble, IMO, is that some insist that there is logic in their beliefs. They are therefore forced to enter the arena of logical debate. I don't see why they feel the need to do this but if they do, then there are grounds for debate on those points.

Most of the time these things come up, it's not the actual beliefs that are on the spot. It's when people try to force their beliefs on others in the field of public policy.

[Mighty AC]

Where religious people get into trouble, IMO, is that some insist that there is logic in their beliefs. They are therefore forced to enter the arena of logical debate. I don't see why they feel the need to do this but if they do, then there are grounds for debate on those points.

You're right, we can debate hundreds of little religious based topics but there is no way around the fact the core of religion is just unsubstantiated belief...or faith as they call it. Why do people try to logically defend their faith? I think most people grow up believing and are either taught that faith is a virtue or don't ever really examine the root of their belief. They act and think logically on every other topic so when told their religious beliefs are illogical and silly, they take offense. People like us, who debate political topics on internet forums, probably take more offense than others when our logic is questioned and have a heightened need to be right. In the end what can they do? I guess just accept their beliefs are illogical, attempt to debate them logically or claim they are being persecuted by anti-Christian bigots.

[Mighty AC]

If you look at my post, I'm talking about basic respect for the person, not their views.

I don't think that people are being targeted, just their ideas. The views a person professes, whether they be political or religious, can lead to a lack of respect for said poster, but I think a basic level of courtesy is usually maintained. Those that cross the line and engage in personal attacks are usually sent to the corner for a time out.

[Bonam]

I don't think that people are being targeted, just their ideas. The views a person professes, whether they be political or religious, can lead to a lack of respect for said poster, but I think a basic level of courtesy is usually maintained.

Definitely agreed. If some people feel mocked because others disagree with their beliefs or find them unlikely, or harmful, well, that's their problem.

[sharkman]

Its also worth mentioning that the kind of things religious people cry "bigotry" over are generally people either arguing against, or mocking their beliefs. Sometimes its unfair or mean spirited or even down right rude..

This is the only attitude that I take issue with here. Mocking people, which is bullying. Edit: If someone admits to mocking, Bonam, then it IS mocking.

There are also those who start thread after thread after thread on how bad Jews/Israel, the U.S government., Christians, Americans etc are. I view these people as unbalanced and possibly worse. If all you can focus on is one issue or conspiracy theory, then something may be amiss there.

Edited September 12, 2013 by sharkman

[Black Dog]

This is the only attitude that I take issue with here. Mocking people, which is bullying. Edit: If someone admits to mocking, Bonam, then it IS mocking.

There are also those who start thread after thread after thread on how bad Jews/Israel, the U.S government., Christians, Americans etc are. I view these people as unbalanced and possibly worse. If all you can focus on is one issue or conspiracy theory, then something may be amiss there.

In the spirit of your commitment to equal time, I trust you will also be directing your scorn at people who focus solely on Muslims/Palestinians, Justin Trudeau or President Obama? Because there is no shortage of those types....

[Mighty AC]

Exactly. We all have areas of interest and tend to focus on them. I like religion, education, environment and music. Some people focus on US Politics or the Middle East and some are just full time cheerleaders for a chosen politician or party. To each their own.

[cybercoma]

Respect is earned

This remark is made so unthinkingly and is completely wrong. Respect should not be earned. It should be lost. Your default position should be to respect others.

[sharkman]

In the spirit of your commitment to equal time, I trust you will also be directing your scorn at people who focus solely on Muslims/Palestinians, Justin Trudeau or President Obama? Because there is no shortage of those types....

I will direct more scorn as soon as some of you start threads on the evils of any other religion(not you specifically BD) except your favorite target, Christianity. I won't hold my breath.

[cybercoma]

I will direct more scorn as soon as some of you start threads on the evils of any other religion(not you specifically BD) except your favorite target, Christianity. I won't hold my breath.

Because there's a shortage of scorn directed towards Muslims and Jews on this forum.

[Mighty AC]

I will direct more scorn as soon as some of you start threads on the evils of any other religion(not you specifically BD) except your favorite target, Christianity. I won't hold my breath.

Here is a ridiculous statement yet, it exactly what you are proposing for posters of religious topics: The Liberal fan boys should spend equal time bashing the Dippers and Greens as they do Harper and the Cons.

Why would you care what topics people start or participate in? It doesn't make sense, unless of course you really just feel that Christian beliefs deserve special protection.

[Black Dog]

I will direct more scorn as soon as some of you start threads on the evils of any other religion(not you specifically BD) except your favorite target, Christianity. I won't hold my breath.

But I'm not the one actually demanding equal treatment. You are. If people want to pick on subject to go on, that's their right. You can engage or ignore as you see fit.

[sharkman]

I'm not demanding equal treatment.