Police Tase 80-year-old woman

[Boges]

I would put this in the Yatim thread but I fear it would be buried in posts about what a cop's intent is when he SHOOTS SOMEONE!!!!

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/09/03/siu_investigates_peel_police_tasering_80yearold_woman.html

A day after the Ontario government announced it would permit all frontline officers to wield stun guns, an 80-year-old Mississauga woman was sent to the hospital with a fractured hip after she was allegedly tasered by Peel Regional Police.

The Special Investigations Unit, the provinces police watchdog, is looking into the incident.

At around 3:30 a.m. on Aug. 28, police were called to Thomas St. and Erin Mills Pkwy responding to reports of a woman walking along the road.

Three officers spoke with the woman on scene. According to the SIU, the woman was hit with a stun gun by one of the officers and fell to the ground. She was rushed to Credit Valley Hospital and treated for a fractured hip as well as other injuries.

Yeah I know what damage a kitchen knife can do to someone and we don't know how long the officers actually tried to reason with the woman but I suspect, like with Yatim v Forcillo, these officers were just butt hurt that the lady wouldn't listen to them.

Could it be a trend with police officers today that they more resemble a parody of an early episode of South Park where they can't stand it when people who don't "RESPECT THEIR AUTHORITAH"

You'd think it'd be in the best interest of the SIU and the Peel Police Service to make more details known because cops tasing an 80-year-old just doesn't sound good. The lady had dementia, was she really that huge a threat to filet these officers at any point. Where they in a rush to going back to ticketing people for speeding?

Hilarious that this came a day after the province announced they would allow all officers to have taser.

I suppose the lady is lucky she wasn't shot 9 times.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Boges

[scribblet]

According to the news this am they got a call saying a woman was chasing a man with a meat cleaver. The woman has dementia but had she buried the cleaver in his head what would be said then.

[Boges]

According to the news this am they got a call saying a woman was chasing a man with a meat cleaver. The woman has dementia but had she buried the cleaver in his head what would be said then.

Was she still chasing the man when the cops got there?

Of course it's rhetorical cause they make these stories public without any details.

[scribblet]

I don't know, only that they were acting on a report, which according to the daughter, was wrong. It was a knife, not a cleaver as was reported to the police. The daughter is getting a lawer.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2013/09/04/21096126.html

As usual there are so many sides to this we will have to wait for all the details before rushing to judgement. No doubt had they just tackled her and maybe broken an arm, we would see headlines "hard hearted cops break little old helpless lady's arm".

[Moonlight Graham]

The OP article just says she was walking on the street. Nothing about a knife.

[scribblet]

Information is changing as we write. There was a knife, not a cleaver as reported to the police. The woman has dementia but we don't know what the events where leading up to the tasering.

She said her mother does suffer from dementia. "That is true. She has had a history of mental health issues. She is kind of in and out."

Angela said she talked with her mom at the hospital. "I asked her the position of the knife. She said it was down by her side. Not waving it up in the air.

"It is so frustrating."

[Black Dog]

There's tons of examples of cops misusing these things. When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

[Moonlight Graham]

I said this with the Yatim shooting and it's true with cases like this: police have a woeful lack of non-lethal technology, and it seems training, at their disposal. I mean, they probably could have thrown a large net over this woman to contain her if she was wielding a knife and walking around not responding.

[cybercoma]

As usual there are so many sides to this we will have to wait for all the details before rushing to judgement. No doubt had they just tackled her and maybe broken an arm, we would see headlines "hard hearted cops break little old helpless lady's arm".

Cops taser an 80-year-old woman, breaking her hip and you want to "reserve judgment" and the only alternative you can think of is equally violent.

At what point did people start thinking that it's acceptable for cops to attack and assault people at the drop of a dime?

[cybercoma]

There's tons of examples of cops misusing these things. When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

I would hate to have a mental health issue in Ontario with all the cops carrying tasers now.

[cybercoma]

I said this with the Yatim shooting and it's true with cases like this: police have a woeful lack of non-lethal technology, and it seems training, at their disposal. I mean, they probably could have thrown a large net over this woman to contain her if she was wielding a knife and walking around not responding.

Whatever happened to talking to people?

[Rue]

Boges what is it you want? Do you know? With due respect B, and all this is, is a debate, because I appreciate your point but let me argue the other side, if I accept your argument it should be automatically inferred when aevern officer uses any force the intent behind that can automatically be assumed to be murder.

No you can not automatically assume by the number of shots alone an intent to murder. If you can not understand that-I can only repeat-the law when it comes to convicting ANYONE of murder must establish an intent to kill-it can not be inferred by circumstance-not with culpable homicide such as second or first degree murder and the reason for that is to protect the innocent from being wrongfully convicted.

Now in regards to the taser-this brings up the issue of whether a taser should ever be used on anyone with a bad heart or who can be reasonably be suspected to be medically threatened with the taser.

What is the difference?

In one case we have a young man holding his penis with a knife being shot. In another we have an 80 year old woman being tasered. If you want to simplify both situations and equate them as the same be my guest.

However surely you can see the difference.

In one case the force initiated comes about in response to a young man with a knife who is acting deranged. In the other we have an 80 year old woman with no weapon.

Come on. Its like Sesame Street Boges asking you to spot the difference between the apple and the oranges.

By the way Boges I am dead against tasers precisely because I do not think they are safe since police can not know if someone has a bad heart or not.Hate them as a weapon and this is clear proof police will use them if they have them when they should not be using them as anything but a last resort.

Would a taser have made a difference with Yatim? Me personally, I doubt it. They wouldn't have been able to get close enough to him with that knife to use it.

I prefer using a fire extinguisher, pressurized water or fast cement forming spray foam close up on upset people.

I don't like pepper spray either. Its too hard to aim.

Tranquilizer darts should be used as well. Why we don't use them I do not know.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Rue

[Boges]

Boges what is it you want? Do you know. If I accept your argument it should be automatically inferred when aevern officer uses any force the intent behind that can automatically be assumed to be murder.No you can not automatically assume by the number of shots alone an intent to murder. If you can not understand that-I can only repeat-the law when it comes to convicting ANYONE of murder must establish an intent to kill-it can not be inferred by circumstance-not with culpable homicide such as second or first degree murder and the reason for that is to protect the innocent from being wrongfully convicted.Now in regards to the taser-this brings up the issue of whether a taser should ever be used on anyone with a bad heart or who can be reasonably be suspected to be medically threatened with the taser.What is the difference?In one case we have a young man holding his penis with a knife being shot. In another we have an 80 year old woman being tasered. If you want to simplify both situations and equate them as the same be my guest.However surely you can see the difference.In one case the force initiated comes about in response to a young man with a knife who is acting deranged. In the other we have an 80 year old woman with no weapon.Come on. Its like Sesame Street Boges asking you to spot the difference between the apple and the oranges.

Well I did start a different thread. The cases are difference, especially in this instance we have no video evidence.

The similarities are police using force to subdue people, who what most on this site seem to agree, posed a small threat to the officer involved.

But as cyber points out, it would appear cops have a lack of training in dealing with people with mental problems.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Boges

[scribblet]

Cops taser an 80-year-old woman, breaking her hip and you want to "reserve judgment" and the only alternative you can think of is equally violent.

At what point did people start thinking that it's acceptable for cops to attack and assault people at the drop of a dime?

At what point did you stop beating your wife !

[scribblet]

Boges what is it you want? Do you know? With due respect B, and all this is, is a debate, because I appreciate your point but let me argue the other side, if I accept your argument it should be automatically inferred when aevern officer uses any force the intent behind that can automatically be assumed to be murder.

No you can not automatically assume by the number of shots alone an intent to murder. If you can not understand that-I can only repeat-the law when it comes to convicting ANYONE of murder must establish an intent to kill-it can not be inferred by circumstance-not with culpable homicide such as second or first degree murder and the reason for that is to protect the innocent from being wrongfully convicted.

Now in regards to the taser-this brings up the issue of whether a taser should ever be used on anyone with a bad heart or who can be reasonably be suspected to be medically threatened with the taser.

What is the difference?

In one case we have a young man holding his penis with a knife being shot. In another we have an 80 year old woman being tasered. If you want to simplify both situations and equate them as the same be my guest.

However surely you can see the difference.

In one case the force initiated comes about in response to a young man with a knife who is acting deranged. In the other we have an 80 year old woman with no weapon.

...................

Rue, according to the news this morning, the call received by the police said there was a woman threatening a man with a cleaver. There fore the cops acted on a weapons call or whatever they call it. She did not have a cleaver by all accounts, but had a knife. We don't know what she did or how she acted nor the events leading up to this.

We don't know who the man was she was chasing because her husband is deceased, but there is a lot more to this than we know.

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/straighttalk/archives/2013/09/20130904-071842.html

Provincial guidelines on the use of stun guns note it's advisable to use them on the elderly.

"Is an officer supposed to check someone's identification to check their date of birth before deciding to take life saving action?" said an officer. "It's dark, there is a potential victim and a suspect has a deadly weapon. Those are the first factors an officer considers."

[cybercoma]

But as cyber points out, it would appear cops have a lack of training in dealing with people with mental problems.

This and they seem woefully quick to jump to physical violence.

[Topaz]

Wouldn't a martial art move been better than zamming a mentally ill 80 year old?? Perhaps, the cops should be trained in the arts and use them and only the gun when there's no other choice.

[bjre]

In China, cops have forks:

http://www.zgnt.net/content/2012-05/25/content_2056988_5.htm

http://www.zgnt.net/img/attachement/jpg/site3/20120525/90fba6156b3c11296ede3c.jpg

[bjre]

and net, hook.

http://www.foshan.gov.cn/zwgk/zwdt/jryw/201303/W020130311367268013385.jpg

[Rue]

Thanks Scrib for the update and your points are of course taken.

To Boges: I am debating you on some of the topics related to this but totally agree with you as I think we all do on either side of the debate that police training with the mentally ill is the issue and we all agree needs improving as we have all pointed out.

Cyb in regards to your comments I here your points but now criticize them as going too far, i.e., making too much of a generalization that everything the cops do is necessarily suspect and an over-reaction.

I would agree we need to look at all uses of force to determine if they are appropriate though and continually upgrade th etraining for use of force. Police know that. They know they have to constantly revise their training. Whether they do it soon enough or efficiently enough I defer to their trainers on.

Surely we all agree tasering 80 year olds, is probably excessive in normal circumstances but Scrib makes the point we all need to keep in mind-we don't know the actual context of the use of the taser.

Simply on the face of using a taser on an 80 year old with no other facts-we all agree it seems too much because of their age.

However if this woman was demented, ask psw's or care attendant's how strong demented seniors can get when they go into a fit. They bite, kick, spit and have amazing strength y ou would not think possible in old frail people. Nurses and psw's will tell you they do not turn their back on people with dementia ever. Very unpredictable.

If the lady was erratic and had a knife the police may have tasered her on low because they thought that was ther SAFEST alternative. Maybe it was maybe it was not. Can we get more facts please.

In response to Black Dog's hammer and nail comment-its the kind of stereotypical bigoted thinking of police officers I reject. It stereotypes police as all thinking the same way and because of the nature of their authority ALWAYS distorting the potential for danger. I call b.s. to that.

He engages in bigotry against police officers pure and simple. How does he assume because a police officer may have a weapon or is an authority figure with a weapon this automatically causes them to over-react. Nonsense.

I do concede there are studies that show if a police officer carries a taser they are more likely to use it in situations they should not instead of as a last resort and concede that point to Black Dog but not furrther then that to assume simply because police are authority figures and have weapons their work makes them brutal and over-react when perceiving danger. No. That is the all police are pigs stereotype. Not for me. There are good cops who never draw their weapons or act like savages and they get dragged in the mud by a few bad cops or bigots who see them as symbols for the police haters own unresolved issues with authority.

Enough with the bigoted stereotypes couched as politically appropriate criticism.

By the way I think its ironic someone usedthe Chinese as an example of whose police we should look to.

Don't get me wrong. I appreciate the point made using them was to show alternative forms of subduing people with picture examples and I think that was a valuable way to make the point of considering alernative methods. It makes that part of the discussion more easy to understand.

Just me, I would not want to live in China. In that country the police and state organ are not divorced from one another and police are used as political agents of state oppression in a manner far different than in Canada.

Thanks but I pass on their police although I do appreciate the point made as I said.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Rue

[bjre]

By the way I think its ironic someone usedthe Chinese as an example of whose police we should look to.

Don't get me wrong. I appreciate the point made using them was to show alternative forms of subduing people with picture examples and I think that was a valuable way to make the point of considering alernative methods. It makes that part of the discussion more easy to understand.

Just me, I would not want to live in China. In that country the police and state organ are not divorced from one another and police are used as political agents of state oppression in a manner far different than in Canada.

Thanks but I pass on their police although I do appreciate the point made as I said.

Ironically, Chinese cops did not shoot the man with 2 knives, but Canadian cops shoot Yatim.

Edited September 5, 2013 by bjre

[Rue]

Ironically, Chinese cops did not shoot the man with 2 knives, but Canadian cops shoot Yatim.

True. Very true and that is the point. Got it.

[Boges]

No Charge.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/10/09/peel_police_officer_wont_face_criminal_charges_for_tasering_80yearold_woman.html

Apparently she was only carrying a butter knife. :-/

[cybercoma]

But we can't be fining an 89 year old for not filling out her census. THAT would look bad.

[GostHacked]

But we can't be fining an 89 year old for not filling out her census. THAT would look bad.

She wont get a fine or get jail time.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/census-protester-audrey-tobias-acquitted-of-not-filing-form-1.1930998

An 89-year-old peace activist who refused to fill out the census because of its link to a U.S. military contractor is not guilty of violating the Statistics Act, a Toronto judge decided today.

Audrey Tobias, who faced jail time if she had been convicted, argued she didn't file her 2011 census because it is processed using software from Lockheed Martin.

Very good precedent. I would not want that info in the hands of a US military contractor either.

Edited October 10, 2013 by GostHacked