Racism or Secularism? Quebec looking to ban all religious garb.

[Icebound]

Ah yes, the old appeal to authority.

You continue to duck the very important questions of "If Islam is going to dominate, the west, what will that look like and how will they achieve it?" When pressed, you bring up Detroit or some other red herring. And meantime you go out of your way to point out the evils that men do in Islam's name (but gosh no, you're not fearmongering at all!) It's just a bunch of bloviating and since you're unwilling or incapable of real discussion, there' s little point in taking what you say seriously. But again, top-notch trolling.

+1

North America may well be dominated by Muslims at some point.... or Slavs.... or Black Africans, or Black Americans, or Chinese, maybe even Spanish Americans ..... but it is not going to come about because of some book of religious teachings or because of immigration policies. In fact, the domination, (if it happens), may well remain off shore.

Such domination, if it comes..... will come about by control of money. Worrying about immigration will not prevent that... immigration may well be your saviour from it.

...

[carepov]

-Islamic countries control most of the oil. And nearly all of the easy to get oil. How's that wind-powered car coming? The OIC is a 57 nation voting block at the UN. Try and out-vote it.

-Islam is growing...not shrinking.

-2050 is a wink of an eye away...I'm also old enough to recall statistics from reliable sources that claimed birth control would ultimately keep the planet's population from reaching what it is today. Yeah...everyone took to birth control...not. As Clemens and/or D'Israeli said re: three types of lies...

-As mentioned before: Who can say re: when it will dominate? Islam is eternal for practical purposes. Mohammed said Islam will dominate all other religions. Mohammed is the Prophet of God...the Final Prophet of God.

Sure, population and oil reserves are aspects of power, but really, how much of the world does Islam control? 5%, 10%?

Islam is growing by population by 2% per year. Is the power of Islam growing, I'm not so sure, it looks like downward slope for the last 500 years, no? Islam cannot even control their third holiest city.

Of course all this talk is based on a false assumption that there is even a united Islam capable of uniting it's power.

[bleeding heart]

Sure, population and oil reserves are aspects of power, but really, how much of the world does Islam control? 5%, 10%?

Islam is growing by population by 2% per year. Is the power of Islam growing, I'm not so sure, it looks like downward slope for the last 500 years, no? Islam cannot even control their third holiest city.

Of course all this talk is based on a false assumption that there is even a united Islam capable of uniting it's power.

Really good points. Islam is fractured...in fact, at war with itself.

Add to that the obvious fact that almost all the adherents have zero interest in taking over the world...or even their neighbours....they're a little busy trying to get on with their personal and family lives, like the rest of us.

I sense a lot of "Muslim horde" type thinking. which I believe is (and I'm being generous) a profound misunderstanding.

A few fanatics doubtless have a Qu'ran-induced fantasy about a global caliphate...an impossible dream, so not a large-scale threat.

Most Muslims, obviously, simply want to live their lives in peace. This is not a "radical" or a "PC" view...it's an obvious truism.

It doesn't matter what parts of their theology might have to say about it.

[Black Dog]

Without tax incentives and an expensive upgrader process, that tar will remain in the sands. Middle East crude oil pours out of the ground.

Explain then why oil output from the tar sands keeps going up while Middle Eastern production declines. The oil sands alone are expected to produce more than 5 billion barrels a day by 2030 (Saudi Arabia currently produces 11 billion barrels a day).

[Black Dog]

Not really true.

"Religious freedom" means that I do not harrass you because of your particular interpretation of afterlife. Or even because of your particular ceremonies that celebrate / commemorate your beliefs.

If you decide to take your self-flagellation parade down Yonge Street at Easter time, you must have exactly the same parade permits as any other parade. If the competing religion across the street wants to hold a self-flagellation parade of their own, we cannot discriminate against them and must allow them the same consideration as the previous.

BUT... if we are faced with 20 or 30 self-flagellation traffic shutdowns a year, and deem that might be detrimental to the city and society as a whole, then I submit that we are certainly within our rights to refuse permits to ALL such parades. And so if you want one, you can rent the Rogers Dome or Downsview Park or whatever, have your celebration there.... and I can't harrass you ...assuming you have all your health and safety ducks in a row.

So, to that extent, I submit that the state CAN (and SHOULD) curtail religious observances in certain circumstances...... but wearing a crucifix or a turban can hardly be deemed worthy of "detrimental to society" consideration.

To take that to a more extreme level, even in the privacy of a home, if someone claims that beating his wife is a religious requirement, the state certainly has the right to stop that.... just as it prosecutes "honour killings". THAT is a form of education that changes behaviour. I refer you back to that council of ex Muslims.

Good points. The whole cultural suicide theory posited by Steyn et al is predicated on the notion that we are incapable of saying "no" to the demands of these growing groups, which is a classic slippery slope fallacy. It could be we are headed into uncharted waters in terms of accommodation, but we've had hundreds of years of success integrating disparate immigrant groups; I have yet to see it demonstrated why Muslims would be any different beyond "oh well, they just are."

[DogOnPorch]

Hardcore self-appointed leaders may not, perhaps, But you need to check out some of the forums for ex-Muslims... You can start with the Council Of Ex Muslims..... dot com

Not really true.

"Religious freedom" means that I do not harrass you because of your particular interpretation of afterlife. Or even because of your particular ceremonies that celebrate / commemorate your beliefs.

If you decide to take your self-flagellation parade down Yonge Street at Easter time, you must have exactly the same parade permits as any other parade. If the competing religion across the street wants to hold a self-flagellation parade of their own, we cannot discriminate against them and must allow them the same consideration as the previous.

BUT... if we are faced with 20 or 30 self-flagellation traffic shutdowns a year, and deem that might be detrimental to the city and society as a whole, then I submit that we are certainly within our rights to refuse permits to ALL such parades. And so if you want one, you can rent the Rogers Dome or Downsview Park or whatever, have your celebration there.... and I can't harrass you ...assuming you have all your health and safety ducks in a row.

So, to that extent, I submit that the state CAN (and SHOULD) curtail religious observances in certain circumstances...... but wearing a crucifix or a turban can hardly be deemed worthy of "detrimental to society" consideration.

To take that to a more extreme level, even in the privacy of a home, if someone claims that beating his wife is a religious requirement, the state certainly has the right to stop that.... just as it prosecutes "honour killings". THAT is a form of education that changes behaviour. I refer you back to that council of ex Muslims.

As for the argument that Islam suppresses women.... well you know what? lots of women even in non-muslim households are "suppressed", some willingly because it is a way to ensure food and safety... some by circumstance because they have nothing better.... some are just plain lazy to get away... and some are actively looking for a way out.

When we are able to talk to the 3rd generation descendants of Muslim ancestors in North America, that's when we will see how that is working out.

...

And who shall be the arbitrators in that decision to curtail certain religious rights & freedoms? The government?

[DogOnPorch]

Explain then why oil output from the tar sands keeps going up while Middle Eastern production declines. The oil sands alone are expected to produce more than 5 billion barrels a day by 2030 (Saudi Arabia currently produces 11 billion barrels a day).

There's this country called China...

[DogOnPorch]

Sure, population and oil reserves are aspects of power, but really, how much of the world does Islam control? 5%, 10%?

Islam is growing by population by 2% per year. Is the power of Islam growing, I'm not so sure, it looks like downward slope for the last 500 years, no? Islam cannot even control their third holiest city.

Of course all this talk is based on a false assumption that there is even a united Islam capable of uniting it's power.

The false assumption? Pan-Arabism...Pan-Islamism...the Ummah...the Caliphate...all quite real if one knows their history.

[Black Dog]

There's this country called China...

And?

[Black Dog]

And who shall be the arbitrators in that decision to curtail certain religious rights & freedoms? The government?

Who is the usual arbiter of such matters?

[carepov]

The false assumption? Pan-Arabism...Pan-Islamism...the Ummah...the Caliphate...all quite real if one knows their history.

Yes, there a symbols of unity but when it comes to real power, there is no united Islamic power.

-Iran vs. Iraq

-Iraq vs. Kuwait

-Failed arab league

-Turkish alliance with Israel

-Sunni vs. Shia

-Diverging philosophies of western Islam vs. non-western Islam

-Syria

(besides even IF there was a united Islamic power, how much world power would it control?)

[DogOnPorch]

And?

Who do you think will be sucking-up 5 billion barrels of tar? CNOOC, China Investment Corp, PetroChina, Sinopec...etc.

[DogOnPorch]

Yes, there a symbols of unity but when it comes to real power, there is no united Islamic power.

-Iran vs. Iraq

-Iraq vs. Kuwait

-Failed arab league

-Turkish alliance with Israel

-Sunni vs. Shia

-Diverging philosophies of western Islam vs. non-western Islam

-Syria

(besides even IF there was a united Islamic power, how much world power would it control?)

What's the definition of Ummah? Hint...it means the same in Hebrew as Arabic (from the root "ummat").

[carepov]

Really good points. Islam is fractured...in fact, at war with itself.

Add to that the obvious fact that almost all the adherents have zero interest in taking over the world...or even their neighbours....they're a little busy trying to get on with their personal and family lives, like the rest of us.

I sense a lot of "Muslim horde" type thinking. which I believe is (and I'm being generous) a profound misunderstanding.

A few fanatics doubtless have a Qu'ran-induced fantasy about a global caliphate...an impossible dream, so not a large-scale threat.

Most Muslims, obviously, simply want to live their lives in peace. This is not a "radical" or a "PC" view...it's an obvious truism.

It doesn't matter what parts of their theology might have to say about it.

Thanks.

I enjoy the discussion, but I am frankly dumfounded as to why it is even being discussed. The idea that countries will be dominated by Islam is absurd yet some very knowledgeable people support this idea, why?

I have had almost the same discussion with those that claim the "Jews are taking over the world: look at the political lobby, Jews control Hollywood and the media, they claim to be the "chosen people"" Absurd, yet prevalent, why?

[DogOnPorch]

Who is the usual arbiter of such matters?

I'd assume the government. This would be the same government that any Canadian can get elected to. Seeing what a touchy issue even a headscarf in public is, good luck getting elements of the Quran removed from Canadian culture via 'Man's Laws'.

[Black Dog]

Who do you think will be sucking-up 5 billion barrels of tar? CNOOC, China Investment Corp, PetroChina, Sinopec...etc.

Thanks, as that further undermines your claim that Islamic countries "control most of the oil." (China BTW is one of the top 5 oil producing nations. In fact only one of the top 5 is an Islamic country).

[carepov]

What's the definition of Ummah? Hint...it means the same in Hebrew as Arabic (from the root "ummat").

It means community. So, what percentage of world's real power does the Islamic Ummah control?

[Black Dog]

I'd assume the government. This would be the same government that any Canadian can get elected to.

Just like any American can become president, right?

Seeing what a touchy issue even a headscarf in public is, good luck getting elements of the Quran removed from Canadian culture via 'Man's Laws'.

Don't need luck, we're doing just fine keeping the more abhorrent practices out (last I checked honour killings, polygamy etc were still against the law). Beyond that, I'm not really interested in removing elements of the Quran from Canadian culture that don't impact me.

[DogOnPorch]

Thanks.

I enjoy the discussion, but I am frankly dumfounded as to why it is even being discussed. The idea that countries will be dominated by Islam is absurd yet some very knowledgeable people support this idea, why?

I have had almost the same discussion with those that claim the "Jews are taking over the world: look at the political lobby, Jews control Hollywood and the media, they claim to be the "chosen people"" Absurd, yet prevalent, why?

Nice fallacies.

There's over a billion that belong to the Islamic faith. There are under 20 million calling themselves Jewish.

[DogOnPorch]

It means community. So, what percentage of world's real power does the Islamic Ummah control?

Nation.

The OIC is a 57 member voting block. Try to out vote them.

Most of the planet's oil reserves...especially 'easy to get' oil...is controlled by Islamic countries.

I can keep this up as long as you can...

[carepov]

Nice fallacies.

There's over a billion that belong to the Islamic faith. There are under 20 million calling themselves Jewish.

IMO, both claims are equally absurd.

[carepov]

Nation.

The OIC is a 57 member voting block. Try to out vote them.

Most of the planet's oil reserves...especially 'easy to get' oil...is controlled by Islamic countries.

I can keep this up as long as you can...

You are good at ducking the question of real power. How about more specificly: What percentage of the world's military spending is spent by Islamic countries?

[cybercoma]

Nice fallacies.

There's over a billion that belong to the Islamic faith. There are under 20 million calling themselves Jewish.

You're making premises without explicitly stating your argument. It doesn't matter how many people are Muslim. Why does it matter?

[Black Dog]

Nation.

The OIC is a 57 member voting block. Try to out vote them.

Yeah, because when I think of Islamic nations, I think "cooperation".

Most of the planet's oil reserves...especially 'easy to get' oil...is controlled by Islamic countries.

Better to say "is located in Islamic countries." Who actually controls the oil is another matter (but you already know this,a syou post above re: China clearly demonstrates). Of course, let's not forget Islamic countries have had decades to use their oil wealth to build their power. They built gold-plated palaces and skyscrapers instead.

Anyway, you're all over the place with this, conflating Islam with Islamic states and the broad population of believers. the Islamic world is not a monolith, but you continue to portray it as such.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Black Dog

[DogOnPorch]

Just like any American can become president, right?

Don't need luck, we're doing just fine keeping the more abhorrent practices out (last I checked honour killings, polygamy etc were still against the law). Beyond that, I'm not really interested in removing elements of the Quran from Canadian culture that don't impact me.

Canada has no birth requirement to be PM...just a Canadian of majority age who resides in Canada.

So...honour killings and polygamy are now unheard of in Canada?

IMO, both claims are equally absurd.

You're permitted your opinion. Your opinion does not cancel-out mine.

You are good at ducking the question of real power. How about more specificly: What percentage of the world's military spending is spent by Islamic countries?

I'm also not your monkey. I gave you the real power. You're free to supply other statistics.