Hyperloop

[Mighty AC]

This particular project is open source and will be crowd funded. That's pretty exciting in itself.

Edited October 1, 2013 by Mighty AC

[Wilber]

"Crowd funded" Interesting concept. Please explain.

[TimG]

"Crowd funded" Interesting concept. Please explain.

Crowd funding is a new phenomena where business ventures are financed by receiving a small amount of money from a lot of people rather than receiving a large amount of money from a few angel investors.

It is good way to raise seed money for things that have wide public appeal, although, I am not certain it could raise enough money to make a viable hyperloop prototype (which would likely require 100s of millions).

https://www.jumpstartfund.com/

[Wilber]

Crowd funding is a new phenomena where business ventures are financed by receiving a small amount of money from a lot of people rather than receiving a large amount of money from a few angel investors.

It is good way to raise seed money for things that have wide public appeal, although, I am not certain it could raise enough money to make a viable hyperloop prototype (which would likely require 100s of millions).

https://www.jumpstartfund.com/

100's of millions for the R&D and billions to build. I think this is an interesting concept that deserves some research but that is all. I recall riding on the Japanese Maglev demonstrator at Expo 86. 26 years later and there are only two short commercial lines operating in the world, both hideously expensive to build, so let's not get carried away by the latest gee wiz concept.

[Mighty AC]

Elon Musk believes the Hyperloop will cost US$7.5-billion at most. The US$7.5-billion estimate for a pod+cargo version. For just passengers, he thinks it’s only US$6-billion. The pods and linear motors will cost hundreds of millions. The tube will cost billions. For comparison, the California high-speed rail project is projected to cost US$70-$100 billion.

Of course a prototype will cost significantly less. If the prototype lives up to even a fraction of the hype raising $7.5 to $20 billion from the big boys will be easy.

[TimG]

Of course a prototype will cost significantly less.

100s of millions *is* significantly less. The largest crowd funding financing to date is about $10 million for a real consumer product. I can't say the crowd-funding effort wont succeed but I would say it is extremely implausible.

http://thenextweb.com/mobile/2013/08/16/canonical-raises-10-3m-for-ubuntu-edge-beats-the-pebble-as-the-highest-crowdfunding-campaign-ever/

Edited October 3, 2013 by TimG

[Wilber]

Of course a prototype will cost significantly less. If the prototype lives up to even a fraction of the hype raising $7.5 to $20 billion from the big boys will be easy.

Just a concept on a piece of paper but he already has it costed out. Right.

[dre]

100s of millions *is* significantly less. The largest crowd funding financing to date is about $10 million for a real consumer product. I can't say the crowd-funding effort wont succeed but I would say it is extremely implausible.

http://thenextweb.com/mobile/2013/08/16/canonical-raises-10-3m-for-ubuntu-edge-beats-the-pebble-as-the-highest-crowdfunding-campaign-ever/

I think this means of funding will grow though. People are realizing that most of the public AND private sectors couldnt care less about about what they want and need. Especially when it comes to longer term projects.

[Mighty AC]

Just a concept on a piece of paper but he already has it costed out. Right.

I don't expect the crowd will fund the whole project even initially. Though it could easily produce the capital needed to produce sound research requited to solicit larger funds. I also expect the team of expert engineers being assembled will be able to produce a more detailed cost analysis.

Why do we need faster, cheaper, cleaner transport when we already have planes, trains and automobiles? Oy vey! At what point do we start to lose interest in progression and become societal anchors? Back in the VCR age the flashing 12 o'clock was an indicator that the resident had either experienced a recent power outage or that they've given up. I wonder what the most apparent new tells are. Flip phones, faxes, unsecured networks, paper maps, Blackberries??

[Wilber]

I think this is an interesting concept that deserves investigation but the hype that initially surrounds these things is invariably tempered by reality and the real costs are nowhere near the first estimates. BTW, I hope your comment about NY to LA in 45 minutes was just a slip. Even if you could build one of these things on an exact great circle between the two, you would need to average over Mach 3 at sea level to do it in 45 minutes

[Mighty AC]

Projects do indeed become over hyped, but promising ideas like this are worth pursuing; especially when engineers feel there are no technical challenges that can't be overcome. The NY to LA time mentioned in the OP was a typo. The article mentions the trip from LA to SF would take 30-45 min and that over a shorter distance like that subsonic speeds would be more comfortable for the passengers. It did mention that supersonic speeds would be possible for long distances like a NY to LA trip, but that the economics wouldn't be favourable.

[Michael Hardner]

Why do we need faster, cheaper, cleaner transport when we already have planes, trains and automobiles? Oy vey!

If somebody put a dagger in the heart of the automobile industry, then we'd really see the big forces of economics in motion. How should we frame the problem ? How about "find a way for lower- and middle- class earners to provide value that will earn them a decent living" ?

Or, maybe we just throw in the towel and start building the welfare/leisure state that economics is naturally leading us to ?

[Mighty AC]

How should we frame the problem ? How about "find a way for lower- and middle- class earners to provide value that will earn them a decent living" ?

Free trade between unequal nations has decimated our secondary industry. Economists may say the nations dominating the manufacturing sector have a competitive advantage, but I believe the playing field has been slanted against developed nations. Though I am fine with local pressures setting wages and corporate taxes, I have a problem with unequal health, safety and environmental standards. Corporations in many nations are simply dumping toxic wastes and literally working people to death. I believe their should be agreed upon international health, safety and environmental standards and tariffs should be applied to items produced in nations that do not meet them. However, if we have to operate within the existing paradigm what can we do to bolster secondary industry and provide a decent living to lower and middle class earners?

I suppose investing in projects that must remain local, like transportation and renewable energy generation would help. Construction, operation and maintenance of a smart grid, along with wind, solar and geothermal (mainly just heating and cooling) energy projects and transportation systems like light rail and hyperloops would create many local skilled and semi-skilled positions.

[Michael Hardner]

Economists may say the nations dominating the manufacturing sector have a competitive advantage, but I believe the playing field has been slanted against developed nations.

I believe their should be agreed upon international health, safety and environmental standards and tariffs should be applied to items produced in nations that do not meet them.

1. We are not 'losing' in Globalization. The western nations that are participating are richer than ever, but with these things there are individual winners and losers.

2. The international health, safety and environmental standards can be sought while trade agreements are ongoing, rather than as a barrier to trade. Certainly, the more contact two countries have the more influence they can have over each other. Look at the world today, and you will see a place where countries are more invested in each other in every sense of the word.

[Mighty AC]

1. We are not 'losing' in Globalization. The western nations that are participating are richer than ever, but with these things there are individual winners and losers.

I agree that western nations are richer than ever, but we trading the middle class for increased 1% wealth.

2. The international health, safety and environmental standards can be sought while trade agreements are ongoing, rather than as a barrier to trade. Certainly, the more contact two countries have the more influence they can have over each other. Look at the world today, and you will see a place where countries are more invested in each other in every sense of the word.

I have a problem with the speed at which these standards are implemented. I have an acquaintance who is a federal trade negotiator in Ottawa. He often complains that his job is like the movie 'Groundhog Day', saying he's been in same trade conversation for 15 years.

[Michael Hardner]

I agree that western nations are richer than ever, but we trading the middle class for increased 1% wealth.

I have a problem with the speed at which these standards are implemented. I have an acquaintance who is a federal trade negotiator in Ottawa. He often complains that his job is like the movie 'Groundhog Day', saying he's been in same trade conversation for 15 years.

First point - then how is trade slanted against developed nations.

Second point - how did the process of imposing standards on other countries work prior to trade with them ?

[Mighty AC]

First point - then how is trade slanted against developed nations.

Trade is slanted against the middle class of developed nations. Trade without equal standards has decimated our secondary industry contributing to the decline of the middle class and increased wealth disparity. Concentrating the wealth of many into the hands of the few is not sustainable and is contributing to some very expensive and dangerous social problems.

Second point - how did the process of imposing standards on other countries work prior to trade with them ?

It didn't exist prior to trade, nor is it the intent now. Multinational corporations and even the governments beholden to them have actively kept standards low.

[Mighty AC]

Elon Musk is building a hyperloop test track for students and engineers to test their pod designs on. He will also fund an annual pod design competition. This guy is amazing and apparently never sleeps. Larry Page was on to something when he said that, should he die, he would rather leave his billions to Elon Musk than a charitable organization.

Elon Musk: 'Will be building a Hyperloop test track for companies and student teams'

[TimG]

Trade is slanted against the middle class of developed nations.

Trade has greatly reduced the cost and increase the variety of goods/services that the middle class can afford to buy. The technological revolution that we have enjoyed would have happened much more slowly (if at all) if trade with developing countries was severely restricted. In the best case scenario, middle class manufacturing jobs still would have disappeared because companies would have turned to automation to keep costs down if moving overseas was not an option.

Concentrating the wealth of many into the hands of the few is not sustainable and is contributing to some very expensive and dangerous social problems.

In the past the middle class may have believed they were doing better because all of the world's wealth was confined to developed countries. Globalization means this wealth is being shared more equitably around the world and this equalization means the middle class in developed countries have seen their incomes grow more slowly.

Most importantly, if you are against a small number of people controlling the world's wealth then you should also be against a small number of countries controlling the world's wealth. Ironically, that is what you argue for when you call for a return to the "good old days".

Edited January 16, 2015 by TimG

[TimG]

Elon Musk is building a hyperloop test track for students and engineers to test their pod designs on.

Musk is only able to do this because he lives in a society that allows him to make huge sums money. Your praise seems a bit hypocritical given your other posts where you call for the government to take Musk's money away from him.

[eyeball]

Those hyperloop cannisters seem fine for shipping cadavers or rescuing Chilean miners but good luck convincing travellers to squeeze into something so claustrophobic looking.

[Michael Hardner]

Those hyperloop cannisters seem fine for shipping cadavers or rescuing Chilean miners but good luck convincing travellers to squeeze into something so claustrophobic looking.

Yes, but that was also a problem with trains, cars, and planes too. Also, the internet. I have a 75 year old relative who finally has joined facebook.

[Mighty AC]

Musk is only able to do this because he lives in a society that allows him to make huge sums money. Your praise seems a bit hypocritical given your other posts where you call for the government to take Musk's money away from him.

People can still amass great wealth when paying a little more in taxes and with trade rules that prevent a health, wage and environmental race to the bottom. Gates and Buffet even did a few talks highlighting why their ilk need to be paying more.

[TimG]

People can still amass great wealth when paying a little more in taxes and with trade rules that prevent a health, wage and environmental race to the bottom. Gates and Buffet even did a few talks highlighting why their ilk need to be paying more.

A little more in taxes in the US is not going to change the income disparities that you complain about. The rich would still be rich and have incomes growing faster than the middle class. Changing those dynamics would require punitive taxation levels. Does that mean you are not really bothered by income disparities and it is just a rhetorical tool? That would certainly explain why you have no problem with a system where the developed countries (a.k.a. the wealthy in the world) control most of the wealth of the world and the rest are left with nothing because trade restrictions prevent capital from leaving the developed countries. Edited January 17, 2015 by TimG

[eyeball]

Yes, but that was also a problem with trains, cars, and planes too. Also, the internet. I have a 75 year old relative who finally has joined facebook.

I guess so. Maybe they'll scale the thing up but I'm pretty certain what they've depicted thus far is probably at or over the limit of what normal people will tolerate.