TTC Police Shooting

[GostHacked]

One thing that hasn't been brought up at all is "suicide by cop," where a person with a death wish purposely acts in a threatening way, provoking a lethal response from a police officer. People do throw themselves in front of trains, cars, etc. using other people to fulfill their death wish, and sometimes that person pays the price. I know of an instance where someone threw himself in front of a car with such a purpose, he was killed, and it so happened that the driver was legally intoxicated and thus charged with manslaughter and sentenced to time in prison even though it was an intentional act. I know of another person who was stalking a police officer, trying to provoke him into shooting her. It happens, is all I'm saying.

Let's not make any judgments here AW.

[guyser]

It is assumed all police forces across Canada are to use lethal force to protect people (themselves too) and to shoot for centre mass. Ergo, where are the living bits are....really just a nice way of saying shoot to kill.

As for his treatment , did anyone expect anything else but what he got?

As for me, (and this is a judgement call and hope no one is upset) the only thing that I didnt like was the warning given to Yatim's family and friends not to look or engage with the Officer nor the other cops in the courtroom.

Sadly, the cops werent told to exhale their puffy chests and stop looking at or intimidating the other side. Seen that way too many times.

We all know, 2 levels of exist. One for us, one for cops. Put em all on camera 24-7

[BubberMiley]

It happens, is all I'm saying.

That's just your opinion, stated as fact.

[Guest American Woman]

That's just your opinion, stated as fact.

No, it's not. There is evidence/proof that it happens.

[Guest American Woman]

Let's not make any judgments here AW.

Where's the judgement? Seriously. Do you know what judgement is? I have to wonder.

[Shady]

No, it's not. There is evidence/proof that it happens.

He's back from suspension, so might be a little trigger happy.

[Shady]

Where's the judgement? Seriously. Do you know what judgement is? I have to wonder.

Especially when this whole thread is about judgements. You're right about the suicide by cop stuff too. It may not apply in this case, but it does happen.

[GostHacked]

Where's the judgement? Seriously. Do you know what judgement is? I have to wonder.

It's a nice veiled attempt at making a statement/judgement without making one. It happens, is all I'm sayin.

[Guest American Woman]

Uh:

"Uh" back at'cha. You said: "Whichever comes first. usually the death part." Which is a claim. I said: "I would wager that more survive than die." That's not a claim.

No, but it sure makes the claim that cops don't expect to kill when they exercise deadly force look stupid.

Who made such a claim? I claimed that they don't always expect to kill, and they don't.

Here's a quick couple of stats:

In 2009, there were 42 Officer Involved Shootings with the LAPD. Out of those, 30 resulted in a suspect being shot. And out of those, 21 resulted in a suspect’s death. In 2010 out of the 40 OIS incidents, 16 suspects were killed and 13 suspects were injured.

So in the first example, half resulted in death; and in the second example, less than half were killed. Looks as if I would win that bet while it shows your claim to be incorrect.

In New York in 2010 there were 33 incidents of intentional firearms discharges during an adversarial conflict, with 16 subjects injured and eight killed.

In 2011, there were 36 incidents of intentional firearms discharges during an adversarial conflict, with 19 subjects injured and nine killed.

Again, that supports what I would place my money on - as it shows your claim to be incorrect.

I'm not sure if this means NYPD cops are better shots than the LAPD or worse.

Or perhaps it means the "intent" wasn't to kill, eh?

[Guest American Woman]

Especially when this whole thread is about judgements. You're right about the suicide by cop stuff too. It may not apply in this case, but it does happen.

Exactly. It does. And of course the cop is on the line for having killed them.

There's been so much said here about Yatim being mentally/emotionally ill, and his behavior certainly was irrational/taunting, that it just brought to mind that some who are killed by cops intended it to be that way.

[Boges]

Exactly. It does. And of course the cop is on the line for having killed them.

There's been so much said here about Yatim being mentally/emotionally ill, and his behavior certainly was irrational/taunting, that it just brought to mind that some who are killed by cops intended it to be that way.

But you have no evidence to support that theory.

I would think, had he really wanted to commit suicide by cop, he'd run outside the streetcar wielding the knife instead of just taunting them from the inside.

[Guest American Woman]

But you have no evidence to support that theory.

What theory? What I stated is a fact. There is such a thing as "suicide by cop." I never said anything about a "theory" where Yatim is concerned.

I would think, had he really wanted to commit suicide by cop, he'd run outside the streetcar wielding the knife instead of just taunting them from the inside.

Perhaps. I would think, though, that it's impossible to determine what exactly one would do in such an irrational state. But again, I never said it was my theory that Yatim did want to commit "suicide by cop." I brought it up because it's interesting, and since there have been comments in general about cops shooting people and them dying as a result, I feel it's relevant to point out that sometimes the cop was set up to shoot at and kill the person in question.

[BubberMiley]

No, it's not. There is evidence/proof that it happens.

You mean like video evidence?

[Guest American Woman]

You mean like video evidence?

No.

[Boges]

I was more referring to evidence that this was a suicide by cop, not the fact that it ever happens.

Since we're floating theory's I think it's far more likely Yatim was under the influence of some drug. This was a Friday night afterall.

Would be interesting to know what was in his tox report.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Boges

[GostHacked]

What theory? What I stated is a fact. There is such a thing as "suicide by cop." I never said anything about a "theory" where Yatim is concerned.

Your theory was about Yatim being irrational/taunting.

Perhaps. I would think, though, that it's impossible to determine what exactly one would do in such an irrational state. But again, I never said it was my theory that Yatim did want to commit "suicide by cop." I brought it up because it's interesting, and since there have been comments in general about cops shooting people and them dying as a result, I feel it's relevant to point out that sometimes the cop was set up to shoot at and kill the person in question.

I am not saying that he was suicided by cops, just that he was suicided by cops.

Detraction, deflection, projection, assumptions and judgements.

[guyser]

.

Would be interesting to know what was in his tox report.

Which one, Yatim or the cop? I say both

[Guest American Woman]

I was more referring to evidence that this was a suicide by cop, not the fact that it ever happens.

Since we're floating theory's I think it's far more likely Yatim was under the influence of some drug. This was a Friday night afterall.

Would be interesting to know what was in his tox report.

Again, my post wasn't a "theory." I have no theories as to why Yatim did what he did. I have no idea whatsoever. We don't even know that he was mentally/emotionally ill. He could have simply been under the influence, as he was known to drink and use drugs. Certainly his behavior was erratic, so I would imagine the autopsy would involve a tox report. Will we hear the results before the trial has ended? I'm guessing that's not likely.

[BubberMiley]

No.

Something more credible than video evidence?

[Guest American Woman]

Your theory was about Yatim being irrational/taunting.

That's no theory. It's not "rational" to wield a knife and expose oneself on a street car. If you think otherwise, you are wrong. Also, his calling the officers pussies, et al, isn't a theory, it's fact, and it fits the definition of taunting.

I am not saying that he was suicided by cops, just that he was suicided by cops.

I said no such thing, so you might want to watch what you falsely accuse me of.

So, do you have anything to say about the substance of my post or not?

[Wilber]

Let's not make any judgments here AW.

Don't think she was, and it is a good point because it is not a rare event. All the more reason to get to the bottom of this.

[Guest American Woman]

Don't think she was, and it is a good point because it is not a rare event. All the more reason to get to the bottom of this.

You're right, Of course; clearly I wasn't making any judgments. It does happen, that's a fact, and cops do have to answer for it when it does. There are so many questions that need to be answered. I'm sure, though, that even when it's all over, questions will remain, as what was going on in Sammy Yatim's mind will never be known (unless he left a note behind).

[Wilber]

True enough and I reckon the costs would be significant. Benefits vs costs is always a consideration. I did read recently that in jurisdictions where it has been implemented, the "use of force" occurences dropped significantly and rapidly. Australlia was one area as I recall. I have heard there is a certain amount of reluctance to the idea due to a sort of "invasion of privacy" issue, But I reckon when you have a badge and a gun and are excersising the authorty of a cop, that is no longer private. In my world as a grey haired commercial pilot, I can recall a similar ruffling of feathers when they started sticking cockpit voice recorders in the panel. I don't even think about it anymore but I do believe it has enhanced safety both by ensuring procedures are better followed, and providing insights into how to prevent reoccurences when things do go wrong.

Like any form of monitoring, the issue of who will have access to this information and under what conditions becomes contentious. Will it just be used for accident and incident investigation, or will it also be used by the boss to eavesdrop on and discipline employees. These things have to be ironed out before hand. As a commercial pilot, you know that many things will be said in the course of normal conversations that you have every right to expect remain in the cockpit, unless of course, they are pertinent to an accident or incident investigation.

[BubberMiley]

I too share the opinion that "suicide by cop" has happened but I have no solid evidence to support this theory. I certainly wouldn't be so presumptuous as to declare it as "fact."

[Wilber]

I too share the opinion that "suicide by cop" has happened but I have no solid evidence to support this theory. I certainly wouldn't be so presumptuous as to declare it as "fact."

I don't think anyone has, they have just presented it as another possibility and it will remain a possibility until it is eliminated. That video does neither.