TTC Police Shooting

[Guest American Woman]

Not to invoke Godwin's Law, but American Woman's argument by its logic also justifies the atrocities of Nazi Germany because they were legal according to the laws and processes in place at the time. Only a complete fool would say justice was present in their concentration camps.

Yet I haven't justified anything - and the Nazi war criminals did receive a trial. But here's the thing - everything isn't applicable to what the Nazis did.

In our country we are allowed "due process," which is what my argument is based on. You want to argue against that?

Edited August 5, 2013 by American Woman

[Guest American Woman]

You have this inordinate faith in the process. Good luck with that.

I have an inordinate belief in the right to due process and not judging the character of a person who we don't know from Adam. That's called making things up, and I believe in the right to due process over the right to make things up about a person.

[cybercoma]

Sorry if I wasn’t clear……..As I said, the correct protocol was followed, a combative person with a weapon advanced on officers and was shot………

What about the wait and then all the extra shots fired? Isn't that the major problem with this situation. Even if you agree with their knee-jerk use of lethal force, it seems quite clear that this cop didn't have his stuff together and should not be roaming the streets armed.

[cybercoma]

They didn't have any need to confront him, and there wasn't a bunch of them in a group. A crowd of strangers will act far differently than a group of friends. The latter is assured of mutual support. The former, not so much.

Let's not forget they all managed to get off the streetcar without getting killed.

[cybercoma]

It depends.......Here's a graph, from the National Post, highlighting threats and the corresponding police responses:

http://wpmedia.news.nationalpost.com/2013/07/force2.jpg?w=620&h=952

Glad you posted this, since it clearly shows the cops skipped right over the assess and plan phases.

[jacee]

I am still bemused by the police commands:

"Drop the knife!"

"Don't move!"

Can he drop the knife without moving?

[Guest Derek L]

What about the wait and then all the extra shots fired? Isn't that the major problem with this situation. Even if you agree with their knee-jerk use of lethal force, it seems quite clear that this cop didn't have his stuff together and should not be roaming the streets armed.

What about the wait? As I've said numerous times, we don't yet know how many shots landed, nor where......As to the pause itself, it was what? 5 seconds?

The officer carried out, in part (as we don’t know how many shots landed and where), a textbook Mozambique drill……revaluated the threat and continued to fire…..As can be seen in the video, after the nine shots, as officers approached, they suddenly halted and withdrew, reordered the young man to drop the knife, then used the taser……This suggesting that not only the officer that fired deemed him a threat, but the other officers approaching him.

[Guest American Woman]

I am still bemused by the police commands:

"Drop the knife!"

"Don't move!"

Can he drop the knife without moving?

I doubt they meant "don't move your fingers." One could drop the knife and "not move" according to police directives.

[cybercoma]

Of course. CY should do his homework.

So a ranting fool with his junk in one hand and a knife in the other is going to be able to generate enough force with a 3" knife to get through a police vest. Is that what you're telling me?

[Guest Derek L]

Glad you posted this, since it clearly shows the cops skipped right over the assess and plan phases.

How so? They saw he had a knife, attempted to contain him in the Streetcar, well verbally engaging him to drop the knife, he refused to comply and moved towards officers.......

As the chart shows, the young man posed a threat that justifies lethal force........

[cybercoma]

I also would like to see an autopsy done on the boy to see if he had

some organic disease that caused him to behave the way he did before his

death.

The coroner is never going to look into that. He'll confirm the cause of death from the shooting, make note of any other injuries, and do a tox report. That's it. They're not going to examine the kid's brain for signs of damage or problems. It's irrelevant to his cause of death.

[Guest Derek L]

So a ranting fool with his junk in one hand and a knife in the other is going to be able to generate enough force with a 3" knife to get through a police vest. Is that what you're telling me?

Doesn't need to get through a vest.......A 3" blade would more then suffice to sever the Femoral artery for instance....

Edited August 6, 2013 by Derek L

[cybercoma]

What about the wait? As I've said numerous times, we don't yet know how many shots landed, nor where......As to the pause itself, it was what? 5 seconds?

You're just being absurd. The shots were enough to drop the guy. Also they're hollow-point bullets. He wasn't posing a lethal threat even if he wasn't killed. He was completely immobilized. Or are you really trying to suggest that a trained police officer in what you're constantly reminding us is close range could fire three shots and completely miss this guy? That's nearly inconceivable.

[cybercoma]

I doubt they meant "don't move your fingers." One could drop the knife and "not move" according to police directives.

I guess it's that simple to understand and react when there's a bunch of cops screaming at you with guns pointed in your face. Don't move and drop the knife. Pick the wrong one and die.

[cybercoma]

Doesn't need to get through a vest.......A 3" blade would more then suffice to sever the Femoral artery for instance....

Riight. So now the guy is lunging at the cops legs with such accuracy that he severs a femoral artery.

[Guest American Woman]

Or are you really trying to suggest that a trained police officer in what you're constantly reminding us is close range could fire three shots and completely miss this guy? That's nearly inconceivable.

No, it's not inconceivable. As I already posted:

.... the average police-issue sidearm will hit a target that is between six and 21 feet away less than 25 per cent of the time, according to New York Police Department statistics that were analyzed by The New York Times in 2007. Police sidearms are chosen for their reliability, not their accuracy. Even at a range of six feet or less, the accuracy rate is below 50 per cent.

[ReeferMadness]

How so? They saw he had a knife, attempted to contain him in the Streetcar, well verbally engaging him to drop the knife, he refused to comply and moved towards officers.......

As the chart shows, the young man posed a threat that justifies lethal force........

I'm sure that American Woman will immediately berate you for predudging the inquiry. Unless, of course, she is biased and only cares about people who hold the view that excessive force was used.

And as for your chart and justification, I want someone to explain how someone who has already been shot and is lying on his back is "likely to serious bodily harm or death". Want to take a crack at that, Derek?

[Guest American Woman]

I guess it's that simple to understand and react when there's a bunch of cops screaming at you with guns pointed in your face. Don't move and drop the knife. Pick the wrong one and die.

So is that why most people don't drop their weapon when given such directives? Oh, wait. They do. Furthermore, he did move.

[cybercoma]

I'm really surprised that you don't see how nonsensical this all is. Even Rue posted a laundry list of alternative approaches the cops could have taken instead of instantly resorting to shooting the guy, then putting a 5 more rounds into him for the hell of it, and hey why not taser the little bastard too for good measure. Anyone with an ounce of humanity can see that this cop was overly excessive in his response, which is why he has been suspended.

[ReeferMadness]

No, it's not inconceivable. As I already posted:

.... the average police-issue sidearm will hit a target that is between six and 21 feet away less than 25 per cent of the time, according to New York Police Department statistics that were analyzed by The New York Times in 2007. Police sidearms are chosen for their reliability, not their accuracy. Even at a range of six feet or less, the accuracy rate is below 50 per cent.

So, you're suggesting that Sammy was on his back having a nap after the first three shots were fired?

[Bob Macadoo]

I doubt they meant "don't move your fingers." One could drop the knife and "not move" according to police directives.

I don't know that sounds like a judgement of the officers' intentions, let's wait for the post shooting report before we make those kind of assumptions. Wouldn't want to come up with any premature conclusions.

[ReeferMadness]

I'm really surprised that you don't see how nonsensical this all is. Even Rue posted a laundry list of alternative approaches the cops could have taken instead of instantly resorting to shooting the guy, then putting a 5 more rounds into him for the hell of it, and hey why not taser the little bastard too for good measure. Anyone with an ounce of humanity can see that this cop was overly excessive in his response, which is why he has been suspended.

Apparently not anyone. Or maybe some people don't have the required ounce of humanity.

[Guest American Woman]

Anyone with an ounce of humanity can see that this cop was overly excessive in his response, which is why he has been suspended.

No, that's not why he has been suspended. He's been suspended because there is an investigation going on.

“The officer has been suspended,” Const. Tony Vella said. “He has been suspended with pay, as the law requires.”

[Guest Derek L]

You're just being absurd. The shots were enough to drop the guy. Also they're hollow-point bullets. He wasn't posing a lethal threat even if he wasn't killed. He was completely immobilized. Or are you really trying to suggest that a trained police officer in what you're constantly reminding us is close range could fire three shots and completely miss this guy? That's nearly inconceivable.

And you're being ignorant........We don't know if the first three shots ricocheted off a handrail or a part of the door assembly of the streetcar……and because they are hollow points, fragments sheared off with contact to metal hitting a person, though painful, are far from lethal or even incapacitating.

And 15-20 feet for a handgun with a ~4" barrel is not "close range".....

[Guest American Woman]

So, you're suggesting that Sammy was on his back having a nap after the first three shots were fired?

I'm suggesting the cop fired several rounds as they are trained to do for the reason given. If one is going to shoot, shooting several rounds seems to be standard procedure.