J Trudeau Promises to Extend Immigration for Family Class

[scribblet]

He also committed to an open nomination process that bars him from appointing candidates, but here http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/07/30/john-ivison-justin-trudeau-parachutes-star-candidate-chrystia-freeland-into-safe-toronto-centre/

he's parachuted in a star candidate over Smitherman who no longer has a riding to run in.

[Smallc]

I'm afraid he could do to Canada what Dalton McGuinty did to Ontario.

The situation Ontario is in is largely a result of the US fuckup of 2008...not that Dalton was great or anything.

[Sandy MacNab]

The situation Ontario is in is largely a result of the US fuckup of 2008...not that Dalton was great or anything.

So, it's largely someone else's fault? I think it is a sign of maturity when people take reponsibilty for their own self-inflicted misfortunes. Dalton, by some accounts, was not great; but people still voted for him.

[August1991]

Smallc, on 30 Jul 2013 - 8:56 PM, said:

The situation Ontario is in is largely a result of the US fuckup of 2008...not that Dalton was great or anything.

People in Norway and Finland, for example, live good material lives. Indeed, they live well regardless of what happens - regardless of the f*ck ups, as you put it - to their south, or on their borders.

----

In the broad scheme of life on this planet (and excepting an obsession with saunas), how is Finland different from Ontario or maybe, northern Ontario?

Edited July 31, 2013 by August1991

[Smallc]

So, it's largely someone else's fault? I think it is a sign of maturity when people take reponsibilty for their own self-inflicted misfortunes. Dalton, by some accounts, was not great; but people still voted for him.

The Canadian economy, including the Ontario economy, was doing very well until early 2008. No one really saw coming what happened next.

[Keepitsimple]

The Canadian economy, including the Ontario economy, was doing very well until early 2008. No one really saw coming what happened next.

Governments perhaps can't do that much to turn a recession around - but they can do plenty to make things worse. Amongst the Leftist Media (CBC, The Star) - it's politically incorrect to criticise any "Green" program - but McGuinty's Green Energy program has caused electricity rates to skyrocket - driving a further nail into manufacturing's coffin. A billion here and a billion there - (eHealth, Ornge, Gas Plants) - surely could have helped investment in infrastructure. How about all day kindergarten - another billion there - at the wrong time - and kowtowing to the Unions once again in permitting fully-salaried unionized teachers to man the posts. And those are only the wastes that have been reported. They indicate an incompetence, made worse with corruption - that permeates far beyond that. Billions upon billions lost.

[Smallc]

I wasn't defending McGuinty, I was simply pointing out that most of the current problem in Ontario was not caused in Ontario.

[Topaz]

The Foreign Worker Program, will allow those workers to apply for citizenship. I found that the top 3 countries for foreign workers are Philippines, USA and China. I don't understand how Canada can support the 1.4 million that the Harper government has allowed in and how many on provinical welfare and how many have jobs?

[PIK]

Justin also promised not to parachute people into ridings , another lie. He is learning form the chretien play book.

Edited July 31, 2013 by PIK

[August1991]

The Canadian economy, including the Ontario economy, was doing very well until early 2008. No one really saw coming what happened next.

So what? Finland was doing well in 1988 and no one foresaw the imminent implosion of the Soviet Union, Finland's important trade partner, and yet it happened. Finland's economy survived, thrived and the biggest change was adopting the euro.

My point is that Canadian politicians use events in America as a last refuge to defend their own incompetence.

The Foreign Worker Program, will allow those workers to apply for citizenship. I found that the top 3 countries for foreign workers are Philippines, USA and China. I don't understand how Canada can support the 1.4 million that the Harper government has allowed in and how many on provinical welfare and how many have jobs?

The Conservatives have simply imitated the "Live-in Caregiver Program" of the Liberals. At least the Conservative program means that potential immigrants can hold a job other than changing diapers for two years before applying for immigration.

OTOH, the US selects its immigrants by lottery and Australia selects its immigrants by boat-endurance so maybe the method of selection matters little.

[hitops]

Having family members remain in poorer countries is actually by far the most effective method of foreign aid to those countries. The amount of money, for example, that people send home to families from the US is at least 4x larger than the entire foreign aid budget. This money also goes to people directly without bureaucracy, improving it's effect over government money, as they spend in directly on family needs and it goes into the pockets of other people in their community.

Secondly, we don't need aging people coming into a country that already has far too many aging people. Our #1 cost by far as a nation is the health care system, and people accrue 95% of their lifetime health costs in the last decade of life. It makes no sense to to bring these people in when we have shortages in many jobs of exactly the type of jobs many immigrants will do.

[guyser]

Secondly, we don't need aging people coming into a country that already has far too many aging people.

They have to pass a health test.

They also need a family memebr who can pay their bills.

The problem with this program is not the people using it , but the lack of teeth the govt shows in forcing these sponsors to cough up the dough.

The idea is right, the govt is negligent.

[Argus]

The situation Ontario is in is largely a result of the US fuckup of 2008...not that Dalton was great or anything.

There is no doubt the US financial meltdown had an impact. McGuinty increasing spending by 64%, and of course, raising individual, corporate and small business taxes, had a lot to do with it too. We are now spending more money to service the debt load, $100b of which McGuinty created, than we are on education. But let's look at the ideological mismanagement of our power system. This is EXACTLY the sort of thing Justin Trudeau seems most likely to engage in. He gets enthusiastic about things on an ideological basis, similar to the provincial liberals and "green energy" and adopts all the most optimistic views, ignoring reality and costs. Ontario is now locked into multi decade contracts which force us to pay for energy we don't need. We then export that energy at about a fifth what we're paying, to the US.

We will be doing that for 20 years and it will cost us tens of billions. That's part of the reason why electricity prices in Ontario have doubled since McGuinty took power, and are likely to double again over the coming years. Ontario could wind up with the highest energy prices in the WORLD .

http://opinion.financialpost.com/2013/01/17/ontarios-power-trip-mcguintys-legacy/

http://opinion.financialpost.com/2010/10/07/terence-corcoran-power-failure/

How did this happen? The McGuinty Liberals seized on the idea of green energy. They ignored all naysayers, blithely dismissing any and all reports about what the end cost would be, wrapping themselves in the noble mantle of the protectors of the environment. And it's that exact attitude Justin Trudeau has demonstrated on a variety of subjects, including green energy... and immigration.

[scribblet]

They have to pass a health test.

They also need a family memebr who can pay their bills.

.........................

They do, and for how long are they required to pay their bills.

We have to limit the no. of elderly immigrants because we can't afford to pay for the burden they place on the health-care system and other social resources. According to Kenney, a set of grandparents could cost the system $400,000.

Note what's going on in N.Z. and so much for 'family reunification' as the kids dump their kids elderly parents and leave for greener pastures.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10887537

Edited August 1, 2013 by scribblet

[hitops]

They have to pass a health test.

They also need a family memebr who can pay their bills.

That's a talking point. When they become naturalized, the health system pays. I work in this system.

The relatives paying is only temporary. And of the patients I've seen who had to be billed because they were not Canadians or naturalized, they got their bills forgiven if they had any difficulty at all in paying.

So no, we pay for them in reality.

If we use the example of India, they have quite cheap, good quality private care compared to what it would cost our system to deliver the same care. Even for the sake of the working relative here, it would be cheaper to be paying for health care in India, than paying for it in Canada, during the initial periods that they would receive no coverage here.

Edited July 31, 2013 by hitops

[guyser]

That's a talking point. When they become naturalized, the health system pays. I work in this system.

The relatives paying is only temporary. And of the patients I've seen who had to be billed because they were not Canadians or naturalized, they got their bills forgiven if they had any difficulty at all in paying.

So the govt goes soft on them.

Theres a situation that can be addressed.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Guyser2

[hitops]

So the govt goes soft on them.

Theres a situation that can be addressed.

I robustly reject the policy strategy of 'yes it has huge flaws that cause it to not actually function, but let's pass it and worry about that later'. Because the later never arrives, way to politically dangerous.

Edited July 31, 2013 by hitops

[The_Squid]

Amongst the Leftist Media (CBC, The Star) - it's politically incorrect to criticise any "Green" program...

Really? The CBC never reports criticism of "green" programs? Why do you make such sweeping hyperbolic statements that are so easy to refute and point out how wrong you are?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2013/03/27/bc-carbon-neutral-report.html

[guyser]

I robustly reject the policy strategy of 'yes it has huge flaws that cause it to not actually function, but let's pass it and worry about that later'. Because the later never arrives, way to politically dangerous.

They are not flaws with the program, but flaws with the govt enforcing the rules.

[AlienB]

I'm all for an open borders policy on resident status based upon payment of a residency fee. As well as making immigration easier based upon payment for citizenship, not as an exclusive qualifier but a major qualifier.

Canada is underpopulated. Provinces need input into the immigration process though.

None the less healthcare should be privatized under a crown corporation to manage itself based upon a national health insurance plan.

None the less immigrants are no less a problem then problem citizens.

Edited August 1, 2013 by AlienB

[scribblet]

But - but - but.... David Suzuki says Canada doesn't need any more immigrants.

[hitops]

They are not flaws with the program, but flaws with the govt enforcing the rules.

What difference does it make? The fact is that it doesn't happen, and that's all that matters.

None the less immigrants are no less a problem then problem citizens.

Immigrants are not the problem - most are fine. The problem is the family class which are old and therefore use 10x as many health care dollars per year compared to your average person, and do not pay taxes or produce very much economically. Yes they generate economic activity by simply being here and consuming things and needing things to be bought to take care of them. This doesn't even come close to the costs exacted on the system though.

Edited August 2, 2013 by hitops

[guyser]

What difference does it make? The fact is that it doesn't happen, and that's all that matters.

It makes all the difference in the world. Pretty easy to see.

Lets say the hitops household institutes a cleanliness rule , all well right....?....except for the head of household throwing garbage on the floor. The idea is right, just that one doesnt want to play along

I dont need to see the govt throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[PIK]

I wasn't defending McGuinty, I was simply pointing out that most of the current problem in Ontario was not caused in Ontario.

Ya right. The only thing Mcguinty did not do was the price of gas, but he certainly knock the shit out of ONT with his policies.

[hitops]

It makes all the difference in the world. Pretty easy to see.

Lets say the hitops household institutes a cleanliness rule , all well right....?....except for the head of household throwing garbage on the floor. The idea is right, just that one doesnt want to play along

I dont need to see the govt throw the baby out with the bathwater.

The house is still not clean though, which was the point. If the head refuses to change, it's not gonna happen, so the result is the same. You are assuming behaviour would change. Bad assumption.

Edited August 2, 2013 by hitops