Trayvon Martin - The other side of Hypocricy

scribblet · July 28, 2013

There's no evidence that he was able to fight back as Martin was on top of him and as you say it wasn't racial.

And no, it is not carte blanche to murder kids or even 17 year olds who are on top of you beating you up. It's that type of rhetoric that fans the flames.

Maybe Florida will take a look at the self defense laws but so far it doesn't look like they will. As I've said, prosecutorial misconduct has a big part in all of this along with the rhetoric and race baiting.

cybercoma · July 28, 2013

I guess there's going to be more dead kids in Florida, since they're now allowed to shoot their classmates when they get into a scrap.

July 28, 2013

There's no evidence that he was able to fight back as Martin was on top of him and as you say it wasn't racial.

Even I could at least put a few scratches on someone who was on top of me. Zimmerman doesn't look like a 90 pound weakling, so even with Martin on top of him, he could have thrown a punch or two. I don't doubt that he could have attempted to fight back, and but for the gun, I don't doubt that he would have. The "Stand Your Ground" law shouldn't allow someone to use a gun as a first resort.

And no, it is not carte blanche to murder kids or even 17 year olds who are on top of you beating you up. It's that type of rhetoric that fans the flames.

That would appear to be the case, though, with this verdict, based on the Stand Your Ground law.

Maybe Florida will take a look at the self defense laws but so far it doesn't look like they will. As I've said, prosecutorial misconduct has a big part in all of this along with the rhetoric and race baiting.

I think it's a terrible shame if Florida doesn't take a darn good look at the Stand Your Ground law, and I do hold those going on about everything else under the sun to some accountability if it doesn't; ie: if race takes the center stage and the real issue is shoved to the background, out of sight. Edited July 28, 2013 by American Woman

scribblet · July 28, 2013

I guess there's going to be more dead kids in Florida, since they're now allowed to shoot their classmates when they get into a scrap.

Total B.S. and hyperventilating. It's this type of inventive imaginary scenarios that stokes the tensions and hides the facts/evidence.

Black Dog · July 28, 2013

Ok BD, we're still waiting for your solutions that are so much better.. Please enlighten us.

What can I say? I don't profess to know the answers, which doesn't make the bootstrappers' rhetoric any less dumb. If I had to pick one thing to change, I'd start by redirecting resources from the pointless drug war (blacks and whites use marijuana at about the same rate, but blacks are four times more likely to get arrested for it) and into education and community and economic development.

roy baty · July 29, 2013

What can I say? I don't profess to know the answers, which doesn't make the bootstrappers' rhetoric any less dumb. If I had to pick one thing to change, I'd start by redirecting resources from the pointless drug war (blacks and whites use marijuana at about the same rate, but blacks are four times more likely to get arrested for it) and into education and community and economic development.

So legalizing drugs and increased government funding is the solution. Ok. I was looking for actual real reform details from you since you are so critical of all the other ideas posted here but it appears you too also have no better plan to solve the inner city problems plaguing black communities.

carepov · July 29, 2013

So legalizing drugs and increased government funding is the solution. Ok. I was looking for actual real reform details from you since you are so critical of all the other ideas posted here but it appears you too also have no better plan to solve the inner city problems plaguing black communities.

No, there is no single solution. And no, Black Dog and I are not suggesting increased government funding - just smarter funding, following the principle: an ounce of prevention...

In general:

-Save money on enforcing marijuana prohibition laws

-Spend money on social programs for inner city kids

Specifically:

-Invest money is creating a "drug court" where drug-related crimes are tried separately and sentences are served in the community

-This type of program has been implemented in parts of Texas and for every $1 spent on addicts, $10 are saved in the penal system and recidivism rates are significantly lower

Black Dog · July 30, 2013

So legalizing drugs and increased government funding is the solution. Ok.

It's a start. Getting politicians out of the pockets of special interest groups like the enormously influential for-profit prison lobby would eb another step.

I was looking for actual real reform details from you since you are so critical of all the other ideas posted here but it appears you too also have no better plan to solve the inner city problems plaguing black communities.

Something I freely admit to. What's your point?

cybercoma · July 30, 2013

Total B.S. and hyperventilating. It's this type of inventive imaginary scenarios that stokes the tensions and hides the facts/evidence.

Hyperventilating, eh?

July 30, 2013

I guess there's going to be more dead kids in Florida, since they're now allowed to shoot their classmates when they get into a scrap.

If you really believe that, you should at least be aware of the firearm laws in Florida. http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.22.html

A minor under 18 years of age may not possess a firearm, other than an unloaded firearm at his or her home, unless:

(a) The minor is engaged in a lawful hunting activity and is:

1. At least 16 years of age; or

2. Under 16 years of age and supervised by an adult.

( The minor is engaged in a lawful marksmanship competition or practice or other lawful recreational shooting activity and is:

1. At least 16 years of age; or

2. Under 16 years of age and supervised by an adult who is acting with the consent of the minor’s parent or guardian.

(4)(a) Any parent or guardian of a minor, or other adult responsible for the welfare of a minor, who knowingly and willfully permits the minor to possess a firearm in violation of subsection (3) commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

Edited July 30, 2013 by American Woman

roy baty · July 31, 2013

It's a start. Getting politicians out of the pockets of special interest groups like the enormously influential for-profit prison lobby would eb another step.

Something I freely admit to. What's your point?

I already stated my point. You marginalized many of the ideas put forth by O'Reilly and those who agree with him yet have very few ideas of any real substance of your own. I was looking for better answers than he proposed and found none.

Aggressively working w/black teenage girls and openly identifying it as a problem in the media via the news and public service ads in an effort to reduce having children out of wedlock, banning offensive "gangsta" rap and the bad role models it presents to the unsupervised black youth who grow up w/o fathers, stricter school systems with mandatory uniforms and federalizing gun crimes w/mandatory first offense sentences if caught with possession are "good starts" IMHO. Legalizing yet another mind altering substance in addition to alcohol and throwing government money at a problem without a solid plan fully supported by those in black communities is, in my opinion a small attempt at an out of control problem.

Isn't it ironic that back in the 50's and 60's when we were still in the stone age of civil rights that the black family unit was in far better shape and a lot less blacks were dying? After all the advancements they've made for civil rights, there is even bigger problems than before rotting out the very communities their forefathers fought to liberate from white oppression. So yes, very bold changes need to be made and be made fast without the likes of these civil rights leaders labeling any of these ideas as racist and causing more division between the races. The current civil right leaders have failed and are still failing their own people so the black community leaders need to identify that and look for ideas that work and consider the bold ones O'Reilly had the gonads to speak out about.

carepov · July 31, 2013

...

Some are good ideas, but most of them would require a lot of money. I did not realize that you (and Bill O'Reilly) were in favour of so much government spending.

A very bad idea is the mandatory sentences. It should be blatantly obvious that putting more people in jail does not reduce crime, creates many more social problems, and costs (wastes) a lot of money.

Edited July 31, 2013 by carepov

The_Squid · July 31, 2013

banning offensive "gangsta" rap

lol

Don't forget about heavy metal too... like they tried to do in the 80's...

roy baty · July 31, 2013

Some are good ideas, but most of them would require a lot of money. I did not realize that you (and Bill O'Reilly) were in favour of so much government spending.

A very bad idea is the mandatory sentences. It should be blatantly obvious that putting more people in jail does not reduce crime, creates many more social problems, and costs (wastes) a lot of money.

More money is spent on worse things that have failed.. Show me evidence that a mandatory 5 years for possession of illegal handguns would increase crime. If anything it will make a lot of the criminals acquiring them think twice about getting one hence reducing it. I said harsh changes are needed and they are.

The_Squid · July 31, 2013

More money is spent on worse things that have failed.. Show me evidence that a mandatory 5 years for possession of illegal handguns would increase crime. If anything it will make a lot of the criminals acquiring them think twice about getting one hence reducing it. I said harsh changes are needed and they are.

A person forgets to renew a permit.... 5 years in jail? Tough on crime!!

Wow... you really are the law and order guy eh? So much so that there is no thought whatsoever for the consequences of your silly proposed laws...

carepov · July 31, 2013

More money is spent on worse things that have failed.. Show me evidence that a mandatory 5 years for possession of illegal handguns would increase crime. If anything it will make a lot of the criminals acquiring them think twice about getting one hence reducing it. I said harsh changes are needed and they are.

I never claimed that mandatory minimums increase crime - I claimed that they do not decrease crime. You are critical of trying the "same old solutions that have failed" - add mandatory minimums to your list. Look up the analysis of California's "three strikes you're out" for proof.

The main reason that longer/harsher prison sentences do not work is that criminals typically do not even think once about their crime, never mind twice.

roy baty · July 31, 2013

lol

Don't forget about heavy metal too... like they tried to do in the 80's...

Ha. Nice reminder. Heavy metal of the 80s or even current metal doesn't come close to the lyrics coming out of some rap so-called artists that specifically target black youths and has a far more negative impact than metal ever did. That whole Dee Scheider business was a farce where lyrics weren't even properly analyzed before some loons blamed teenage suicides etc on it. Ironically metal appealed to an audience of over 90% whites.

Anyhow, my point is that drastic measures are needed. Even the music should be examined. Some black rappers are doing no favors to unguided kids in these communities by glamorizing a gangster lifestyle, promoting anti-authority and female degradation. Of course banning is no longer an option but black leaders should criticize some of these artists more in the very least because they certainly don't help the problem. Instead Obama invites Jay-Z over for a WH party..

Edited July 31, 2013 by roy baty

roy baty · July 31, 2013

A person forgets to renew a permit.... 5 years in jail? Tough on crime!!

Wow... you really are the law and order guy eh? So much so that there is no thought whatsoever for the consequences of your silly proposed laws...

Forget to a renew a permit? Gimme a break. You're getting into worst case scenario margin of error. Obviously if someone forgets to renew, they are still the original registered owner. You possess a weapon illegally obtained, yes perhaps throwing the book at it will help. Liberal ideas that are in place for solving these problems haven't seemed to help now have they? Instead, more dead black kids in black neighborhoods and the #s are climbing. Have any better ideas? Please share.

roy baty · July 31, 2013

I never claimed that mandatory minimums increase crime - I claimed that they do not decrease crime. You are critical of trying the "same old solutions that have failed" - add mandatory minimums to your list. Look up the analysis of California's "three strikes you're out" for proof.

The main reason that longer/harsher prison sentences do not work is that criminals typically do not even think once about their crime, never mind twice.

Yes, that's correct you didn't say it increased crime. Hard to find a good solution to this though isn't it? All sides have arguments that seem good but perhaps we're a society that is beyond helping ourselves anymore... Frustrating problem to say the least.

GostHacked · July 31, 2013

lol

Don't forget about heavy metal too... like they tried to do in the 80's...

That was a great vid. Dee was quite awesome in that interview. Gore was as much an idiot then as he is now. Simply just does not listen to what Dee was saying.

Dee - Do the job and be the parent. Great stuff.

The_Squid · July 31, 2013

Liberal ideas that are in place for solving these problems haven't seemed to help now have they?

You do realize that crime, including gun crime, has been steadily dropping, right?

Because this statement

and the #s are climbing.

tells me that you don't know this simple measure. You are all emotion and bravado and no actual substance.

The_Squid · July 31, 2013

That was a great vid. Dee was quite awesome in that interview. Gore was as much an idiot then as he is now. Simply just does not listen to what Dee was saying.

Dee - Do the job and be the parent. Great stuff.

The committee thought that they were going to be getting testimony from a metal-head idiot... not an intelligent family man. I like the Tipper Gore S&M references when he was testifying to what the lyrics actually mean, not what she was reading into them.

And this is the problem with banning "offensive" music... it doesn't work and it is a government over-reach to even try. I don't appreciate rap music... it is even offensive... but I have enough sense to realize that I may not just "get it"... much like the seemingly violent lyrics in heavy metal that older folks didn't get in the 80's...

guyser · July 31, 2013

Ha. Nice reminder. Heavy metal of the 80s or even current metal doesn't come close to the lyrics coming out of some rap so-called artists that specifically target black youths and has a far more negative impact than metal ever did. That whole Dee Scheider business was a farce where lyrics weren't even properly analyzed before some loons blamed teenage suicides etc on it. Ironically metal appealed to an audience of over 90% whites.

Anyhow, my point is that drastic measures are needed. Even the music should be examined.

Sez the white guy now.

Maybe you are Tipper Gore trying again?

GostHacked · July 31, 2013

The committee thought that they were going to be getting testimony from a metal-head idiot... not an intelligent family man. I like the Tipper Gore S&M references when he was testifying to what the lyrics actually mean, not what she was reading into them.

I pay heavy attention to lyrics these days, and many may seem horrible on the surface but in many cases are something completely different. I guess that may be part of the problem where intelligent use of the English language through song confuses many.

And this is the problem with banning "offensive" music... it doesn't work and it is a government over-reach to even try. I don't appreciate rap music... it is even offensive... but I have enough sense to realize that I may not just "get it"... much like the seemingly violent lyrics in heavy metal that older folks didn't get in the 80's...

You agree government overreach there, but do not think they are overreaching when it comes to banning porn on the Internets. How do one reconcile that?

roy baty · July 31, 2013

You do realize that crime, including gun crime, has been steadily dropping, right?

Because this statement

tells me that you don't know this simple measure. You are all emotion and bravado and no actual substance.

You're right, nationally the homicide rate has dropped. However, there is a rise in Detroit and Chicago inner cities the past 2 years with many factors discussed here contributing to it. Bravado and emotion aside there is no denying that the issue of crime being so disproportional in the Black communities compared to White and Hispanic communities is still a problem that needs to be fixed with serious changes and not ignored with "status quo" mentality many would prefer.

Edited July 31, 2013 by roy baty