David Suzuki on immigration

[jacee]

We do allow in vast numbers of people who, let's face it, are really not much of a contribution to our economy (unless you count gang warfare and drug trading as part of our economic model). THAT should stop dead in its tracks.

I am curious where you get your data on that.

A link would be good.

I'm under the impression that Hell's Angels do the lion's share of drugs and prostitution trade in Canada ... old Canadian white boys.

Any immigrants who are involved in the drug trade here in a big way likely were before they came, and got into the country by bringing their 'proceeds of crime' money with them. The Harper gov likes immigrants with money and may not look too closely at where the money came from, or how it's being used here.

I think your stereotype is ridiculous.

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[Guest]

... old Canadian white boys.

I think your stereotype is ridiculous.

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So is yours.

Edited October 26, 2014 by bcsapper

[jacee]

So is yours.

http://www.google.com/search?q=hells+angels+canada&client=ms-android-bell-ca&biw=320&bih=508&site=webhp&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=S0xNVITfCtKAygSa6YKoDQ&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAw

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[Guest]

You don't know what a stereotype is, do you?

[Michael Hardner]

You don't know what a stereotype is, do you?

Are you against stereotypes ? If so, is it because they're offensive or because they're inaccurate ?

Even you have pointed out things about groups too...

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/23918-bill-maher-destroys-the-liberal-utopian-vision-of-islam/page-13#entry1002457

[Guest]

What I said in the post you quoted was not a stereotype. I separated the group, by providing a number, into those who do and do not find certain practices abhorrent.

Do you have an issue with that post? If so, what is it?

As for the current thread, I thought it worth pointing out that Jaycee had described one stereotype as being ridiculous while using the phrase "old Canadian white boys" to describe a group that is only a tiny fraction of the larger group, "old Canadian white boys". In the same post.

As for stereotypes in general, I'm not offended by much.

[Michael Hardner]

What I said in the post you quoted was not a stereotype. I separated the group, by providing a number, into those who do and do not find certain practices abhorrent.

Ok. I'm confused then. How does showing pictures of white bikers differ from saying 'millions of millions of Muslims...'. They're both generalizations leading to a generalized profile of a type of person. Seems pretty close to me.

Do you have an issue with that post? If so, what is it?

No - but you seemed to have an issue with stereotypes/generalizations and I was trying to figure out if it was a moral issue or a disagreement on some other level.

As for the current thread, I thought it worth pointing out that Jaycee had described one stereotype as being ridiculous while using the phrase "old Canadian white boys" to describe a group that is only a tiny fraction of the larger group, "old Canadian white boys". In the same post.

Yes... so you're doing what I'm doing, ie. trying to find out what her problem is.

As for stereotypes in general, I'm not offended by much.

Right, if you perceive hypocrisy, then it does bother you, right ?

[Guest]

Ok. I'm confused then. How does showing pictures of white bikers differ from saying 'millions of millions of Muslims...'. They're both generalizations leading to a generalized profile of a type of person. Seems pretty close to me.

No - but you seemed to have an issue with stereotypes/generalizations and I was trying to figure out if it was a moral issue or a disagreement on some other level.

Yes... so you're doing what I'm doing, ie. trying to find out what her problem is.

Right, if you perceive hypocrisy, then it does bother you, right ?

Because millions and millions of Muslims is an accurate statement. It's the truth. And I separated out the billion or so Muslims who don't have those views with that statement. No stereotype.

I had no objection to the pictures of bikers, other than to say it didn't answer my point.

[Michael Hardner]

Because millions and millions of Muslims is an accurate statement. It's the truth. And I separated out the billion or so Muslims who don't have those views with that statement. No stereotype.

Maybe with a different qualifier it would have been clearer to me.

Saying "Millions of Muslims...." on its own sounds like you're generalizing. But to say "a few million out of a billion" does frame the statement, I agree.

I had no objection to the pictures of bikers, other than to say it didn't answer my point.

But it could be seen as a stereotype, whether it's true or not. I don't think that stereotyping necessarily has to be based on incorrect facts.

[Guest]

I would regard stereotyping to be a case of defining a group of people using the behaviour of a smaller group of the same people. If there were a case where a certain behaviour did apply to all members of the group, I don't know that that would be stereotyping.

[Michael Hardner]

I would regard stereotyping to be a case of defining a group of people using the behaviour of a smaller group of the same people.

That sounds like "sampling".

Seriously, though, it sounds like it would be impossible to actually stereotype somebody. Even showing pictures of white bikers isn't defining a group of people using the behaviour of a smaller group.

[jacee]

You don't know what a stereotype is, do you?

Ii know old Canadian white boys is a pretty good description of Hell's Angels in Canada, and they are the largest element in drugs and prostitution, not 'immigrant' gangs.

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[Guest]

Yes, like I said. No idea.

Immigrant gangs are not big on the drugs and prostitution scene in Canada, and neither are old Canadian white boys.

[jacee]

Yes, like I said. No idea.

Immigrant gangs are not big on the drugs and prostitution scene in Canada, and neither are old Canadian white boys.

Maybe the context of my initial comment will clarify:

cannuck, on 24 Oct 2014 - 8:32 PM, said:

We do allow in vast numbers of people who, let's face it, are really not much of a contribution to our economy (unless you count gang warfare and drug trading as part of our economic model). THAT should stop dead in its tracks.

[Guest]

I think that makes my position clearer. Just as it is stereotyping to tar all immigrants with the drug dealer brush because some immigrants deal drugs, it is likewise stereotyping to tar all old Canadian white boys with that brush just because a tiny minority of them deal drugs.

I mean, immigrants would be a pretty good description of those immigrant gangs who deal drugs, would it not? It wouldn't be a fair one, though.

Edited October 27, 2014 by bcsapper

[jacee]

I think that makes my position clearer. Just as it is stereotyping to tar all immigrants with the drug dealer brush because some immigrants deal drugs, it is likewise stereotyping to tar all old Canadian white boys with that brush just because a tiny minority of them deal drugs.

I mean, immigrants would be a pretty good description of those immigrant gangs who deal drugs, would it not? It wouldn't be a fair one, though.

I was tarring drug gangs ... the drug gang.

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[Argus]

Ii know old Canadian white boys is a pretty good description of Hell's Angels in Canada, and they are the largest element in drugs and prostitution, not 'immigrant' gangs.

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Cite, please.

It seems to me, as I peruse the news media, that the majority of murders seem to be people with non-white skin murdering people with non-white skin, and this invariably seems related to gangs and drugs.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Argus

[cybercoma]

Gangs and drugs? I thought we blame Islam for violence?

[Michael Hardner]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangs_in_Canada

According to a 2004 police report, "The Hells Angels remain some of the largest and most powerful motorcycle gangs in the country, with growing influence in British Columbia and Ontario. Its presence has declined in other provinces due to police efforts, internal conflict and increased competition from other crime groups."[2][3]

The same report stated that Aboriginal street gangs are not as highly organized as other criminal organizations in Canada, but are amongst the most violent. Aboriginal people also constitute a significant portion of prison populations throughout Canada, and the number of First Nation inmates continues to rise at a considerable rate.[4] As of 2005 it is believed over 1000 Aboriginal youths were members of street gangs.[5]

According to the Criminal Intelligence Service Canada (CISC), "The established, well-financed and -connected Hong Kong Triad groups and crime syndicates remain, to our mind, the biggest long-term threat to Canadian law enforcement and society."[6]

In addition to Triad Societies, other Asian criminal groups, such as The Big Circle Gang, have also established national networks based in the major cities of Canada.[7][8]

Homegrown and Asian gangs...

[overthere]

In Alberta the Hells Angels run the entire wholesale end of the moderately sized hydroponic weed industry. They buy crops from growers on contract, setting a price well before harvest and taking the entire crop for cash. It neatly solves a dilemma for growers, since selling the crop at retail is by far the most dangerous, risky part of the endeavour. The bikers are rarely seen on bikes or wearing colours any more, they have gone corporate. When they need muscle, it is easily contracted out. The HA are also heavily involved in the much larger weed business in BC. THat is going through some downsizing- the legalization is the Western States has hurt trade since that was a prime market for BC bud.

The main street gangs in Alberta- who retail a lot of drugs in a hot economy- are the old white gangs which are not well organized, the second/third generation Vietnamese gangs, and First Nations gangs.

[BC_chick]

Cite, please.It seems to me, as I peruse the news media, that the majority of murders seem to be people with non-white skin murdering people with non-white skin, and this invariably seems related to gangs and drugs.

What I notice is that when white people kill non-whites, nobody ever calls for a better analysis of the immigrants that came from that European ancestry. Within one generation Caucasian immigrants are regarded as individuals.

Non-Caucasian immigrants (who are visible minorities) continue to be judged as a whole for the actions of their individuals even after several generations.

This is something no white person can ever fathom because it just doesn't happen. You probably see just as many crimes committed by white people but you don't think twice about it because Caucasians are judged as individuals.

[Argus]

What I notice is that when white people kill non-whites, nobody ever calls for a better analysis of the immigrants that came from that European ancestry.

White people rarely kill non-whites. We don't keep murder rates based on race, but my peception, simply based on being a long time news junkie, is that aside from family violence 80-90% of murders in Canada are committed by non-whites. The immigration of non-whites is still a fairly recent phenomenon. Thus virtually all non-whites (excluding aborigines) either came over since standards were loosened up around 1970, or are the kids of people who came.

The topic of immigration thus seems reasonable.

[Scott Mayers]

This particular thread appears old but I find that it still has substance with regards to today and the temporary immigrant workers. I agree with Suzuki if he intended this in light of how the Conservatives brought this law into place as it isn't what it appears. Conservatives don't normally support immigration which raises questions from the start.

The point Suzuki raised on population is true about the world at large and I see his view on Canada as justified when you consider that the conservative intent to constantly desire increased population is about Ponzi-scheming. By creating an unnatural demand on housing for incoming 'temporary' workers, this acts to cause landlords to increase rents as the apparent competition suggests a greater regular population. These temporary workers are not here on such a short term to stay in hotels nor long enough to justify as being appropriate for population consensus of the towns or cities they come to. But land owners aren't concerned about the 'truth' of this, only that it gives an increased demand for their rents and/or resale values as real estate sellers.

This creates a housing demand which in turn raises values of homes and an apparent demand for new ones. But without any actual new sources of prime industry within these towns or cities, real estate trading and construction are Ponzi schemes since they require a continuous growth of immigrants to buy into these homes that they've come to also build! Even if they end up having to go home, those who have to go home may still purchase homes and lease, rent, or simply save them for a future in which they can still benefit from.

But this suggests that these 'temporary' employees must be of a wealthier class. How can literal poor people in need even get over here from countries abroad and why would they desire to take on a McJob that they'd be paid less than even us who couldn't afford to live on here?

As for professional jobs that a foreigner could be better qualified for, it would be better for such potential employers to take on the responsibility of apprenticeships themselves of new people instead of expecting the world to supply them with non-existing potentials with highly demanded experience. It's bad enough we need a good resume and degree to simply get a dish washing job here!

Population is something we have to consider to curtail rather than enhance. It is already natural for population to grow. It is also natural for all animals, humans included to out-eat their resources and only stop once they've died out of overcrowding, starvation, or other self-destructive factors. David Suzuki's response appears to simply point out that population doesn't improve nor solve any overall survival needs. Expedient needs of those demanding what cannot be found locally are a rarer demand for actual productive professionals than they are for non-collared laborers (not-so-actually) willing to work for peanuts as slaves.

[Freddy]

Personally I see canada as almost of a sort of DNA grave yard if you can imagine such a thing. I am doubtful we are even replacing our own population, birth wise. Even with immigration I think our population will hardly grow. We don't produce anything, we even import our population.

Makes us look real lazy when you look at it like that.

Immigration is hiding the truth that our population is in decline and that we are slowly heading towards extinction.

Here in Canada.

I find it very odd the high number of Canadians that are committing , a sort of, DNA suicide by opting out of having children. In my view, logically,if any form of eternal life really exists, all chances most likely die when you fail to transfer your DNA to the next generation.

Dieing without having kids is like you going extinct. I see most living things trying to avoid that. They probably have a good reason for it.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Freddy

[Scott Mayers]

@Freddy,

Check out an old but good book, "The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins. In it Richard describes how our genes act as selfish 'copy' machines no different than viruses. (That is also where Richard coined the term, "meme" to describe how information itself is spread through society as genes.)

I have no religious beliefs and so lack a sense of concern for whether my genes get passed on or not. This is only on an intellectual level, however, not an emotional one. Our genes evolved to command us to 'feel' emotions and drives (like sex) to fit withing our environments. It is only after the fact that we 'survive' or have children (survival of our genes beyond our personal lives) do we actually credit survival or having children as a virtue. It is not the other way around. It is NOT because life's means of survival (personal or to our offspring) is some universal 'virtue' that assures that we exist.