Egypt's Arab Spring 2.0

[The_Squid]

My thoughts too. Even though I still think the Muslim Brotherhood in control is a bad scenario for Egypt, as you say, he was democratically elected. What happens if they don't like the next elected leader, more riots and chaos.

I heard someone (possibly an "expert") mention that Egypt's one year old democracy doesn't have a way to remove the president if they are acting in a manner that is illegal or against the constitution. Canada's parliament could have a non-confidence vote.... USA has impeachment....

Food for thought.... Maybe this is the only way (for now) to remove a corrupt president in Egypt, despite being democratically elected.

[segnosaur]

I heard someone (possibly an "expert") mention that Egypt's one year old democracy doesn't have a way to remove the president if they are acting in a manner that is illegal or against the constitution. Canada's parliament could have a non-confidence vote.... USA has impeachment....

Food for thought.... Maybe this is the only way (for now) to remove a corrupt president in Egypt, despite being democratically elected.

That's right. The Egyption parliment had tried to pass a law to allow a president to be impeached, but I think the president rejected it..

http://www.loc.gov/lawweb/servlet/lloc_news?disp3_l205403055_text

[Wild Bill]

That's right. The Egyption parliment had tried to pass a law to allow a president to be impeached, but I think the president rejected it..

http://www.loc.gov/lawweb/servlet/lloc_news?disp3_l205403055_text

And there we see why Morsi upset so many of his people!

The Egyptian revolution was driven by young people. There are parallels to the fall of communism and the Berlin Wall. These people are "hip" and do NOT want a religious dictatorship! Morsi was elected because he promised in his campaign that such was NOT his goal!

Yet no sooneer was he elected than he began working on doing exactly that! He was directly contrary to the reasons for the Egyptian revolution the year before.

Let's hope that we don't see more violence. Morsi has only besmirched the Moslem Brotherhood's reputation. Many believe that the MB has no interest in anything but a Shaaria law, religious dictatorship. They want to make Egypt into another Iran. Those who voted for them as a compromise will not likely do so again.

This is actually a not entirely fair attitude. All that has been PROVEN is that Morsi is a sneaky SOB, not the whole MB. Still, the perception has been born and as I repeatedly say, in politics perception IS reality!

If that were not so in Egypt Morsi would not have been ousted and we would not see strife between the different camps on the streets of Cairo this morning.

In today's high tech world of such rapid and wide-ranging communication, young people are well aware of the feel of freedom! Consequently, dictatorships of any kind are harder to achieve today, religious or otherwise.

A dictator needs more and bigger guns than ever before if he wants to stay in power. This trend shows no signs of stopping.

It is much harder to topple a dictatorship than to prevent one from taking power. That is why the situation in Egypt is so active.

The religious extremists also know this. That is why they they will go to such great lengths to achieve their goals. If violence is a necessary tool to achieve their aims they do not hesitate.

Again, this is driven by young people and more and more dictatorships are becoming an old man's game. Old men think that if they get control of the seat of laws everyone will have to abide by whatever laws they pass. Hence we saw Morsi try to pass a law giving him absolute power.

However, young people just don't care about that! They have much more passion and simply ignore such laws, if necessary with active resistance.

The key in Egypt that Morsi forgot (or perhaps, was too old in his head to ever know) was that the only way he could institute a religious dictatorship and keep himself in power was to have those more numerous and bigger guns. In other words, he needed the army! The people would never have gone along with him unless he had a gun to their heads!

As we saw, the army did not support him. Now Morsi is gone.

Let's hope things work out as painlessly as possible for the Egyptian people.

[-TSS-]

As much as I hate to admit it I must still say that the islamists are right on this issue. It's a totally another matter whether the coup was necessary to restore order. Perhaps, perhaps not. However, to justify the coup by vaguely stating the will of the people is not the right answer. Thousands of people out 85m people marching and rioting in the streets interpreted as being the will of the people to overthrow the government?

[dre]

Those who claim that this was an ouster of a democratically elected president are quite correct. However, the will of such a significant portion of Egypt's people cannot be ignored.

Thats happening anyways... The 53% of Egyptians that voted for Morsy are now being ignored, and not only that it seems the army is intentionally trying to make them angry and start a confrontation. This is evidenced by the whole-sale arrest of members of Morsys party for no legal reason at all, and the installation of an opposition leader as prime minister.

All this shows is that it doesnt even matter how people in Egypt vote. All the trappings of democracy are just an illusion and they live in a military dictatorship where whichever government they choose can be easily and quickly deposed.

[Wild Bill]

Thats happening anyways... The 53% of Egyptians that voted for Morsy are now being ignored, and not only that it seems the army is intentionally trying to make them angry and start a confrontation. This is evidenced by the whole-sale arrest of members of Morsys party for no legal reason at all, and the installation of an opposition leader as prime minister.

All this shows is that it doesnt even matter how people in Egypt vote. All the trappings of democracy are just an illusion and they live in a military dictatorship where whichever government they choose can be easily and quickly deposed.

You are assuming that 53% of Egyptians that voted for Morsi still support him! Considering that he campaigned under false pretences, claiming he was NOT going to try to institute a religious government and/or claim absolute power! Because of his claims, many considered him a safe compromise candidate.

He lied! He rejected a bill from their parliament that would have allowed a president to be impeached. He made moves to introduce Shaaria law.

So that 53% figure is moot!

We must also keep in mind that once a fundamentalist Islamic government successfully achieves power it takes much blood to remove it.

Perhaps if the Egyptians allow the MB to run in the next election we shall see if their support has been hurt by Morsi's actions.

[dre]

You are assuming that 53% of Egyptians that voted for Morsi still support him! Considering that he campaigned under false pretences, claiming he was NOT going to try to institute a religious government and/or claim absolute power! Because of his claims, many considered him a safe compromise candidate.

He lied! He rejected a bill from their parliament that would have allowed a president to be impeached. He made moves to introduce Shaaria law.

So that 53% figure is moot!

We must also keep in mind that once a fundamentalist Islamic government successfully achieves power it takes much blood to remove it.

Perhaps if the Egyptians allow the MB to run in the next election we shall see if their support has been hurt by Morsi's actions.

I imagine the military will handpick exactly whos allowed to run and who isnt. It IS a military dictatorship after all, just like it was under Mubarak.

[Wild Bill]

I imagine the military will handpick exactly whos allowed to run and who isnt. It IS a military dictatorship after all, just like it was under Mubarak.

Well, perhaps that's true but as usual, there are details.

The military is well aware that if Morsi had succeeded in turning Egypt into another Iran it would mean kissing all that western aid money goodbye! No more American F-14s and other materiel either.

It would have meant severe problems in Egypt's relationship with Israel.

What's more, it sure appears that such a move would NOT have had majority support amongst the Egyptian people! That is NOT why they had their revolution!

So allowing Morsi to succeed would have inevitably caused more riots in the streets, something it has been proven that the military does not want.

So technically you may be right Dre but I think if that had meant Morsi was still in power the consequences would have been very, very bloody!

Edited July 6, 2013 by Wild Bill

[dre]

Well, perhaps that's true but as usual, there are details.

The military is well aware that if Morsi had succeeded in turning Egypt into another Iran it would mean kissing all that western aid money goodbye! No more American F-14s and other materiel either.

It would have meant severe problems in Egypt's relationship with Israel.

What's more, it sure appears that such a move would NOT have had majority support amongst the Egyptian people! That is NOT why they had their revolution!

So allowing Morsi to succeed would have inevitably caused more riots in the streets, something it has been proven that the military does not want.

So technically you may be right Dre but I think if that had meant Morsi was still in power the consequences would have been very, very bloody!

The thing the constitution Morsy passed that much like Iraqs constitution was based on Islamic law passed a referendum. The majority of Egyptians wanted it. And all this talk about Morsy being a dictator is bunk... based on a decree made last novermeber that was rescinded.

The protesters are just sore losers.

So allowing Morsi to succeed would have inevitably caused more riots in the streets, something it has been proven that the military does not want.

If the Egyptian military didnt want riots in the streets then they would not have rounded up the Morsy government and imprisoned them, and then sat there and did nothing while mobs of people set on one another.

The military intentionally pitted the two sides against each other. They want the bloodshed and a divided population where people are blaming each other for Egypts woes instead of the military junta that runs the place is mighty convenient.

[segnosaur]

The thing the constitution Morsy passed that much like Iraqs constitution was based on Islamic law passed a referendum.

According to Wikipedia, (yeah I know... not a perfect source. but legal documents can be rather tricky to read...) there are differences. there appear to be some big differences. For example:

- Iraq's constitution allows stronger religious freedoms. Egypt's only protects Abrahamic religions

- Egypt's constitution has sections which deal with preventing insults to religion and affects on family life... however this contradicts things like free speech rights. As far as I can tell, there is no such problem with the Iraqi constitution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Egypt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Iraq

And all this talk about Morsy being a dictator is bunk... based on a decree made last novermeber that was rescinded.

The fact that he would make such a decree in the FIRST place is the issue.

By the way, do you have a reference to his decree being rescinded?

The protesters are just sore losers.

As has been said before... western democracies are more complex than just "majority rules". Minorities (even if you label them as "sore losers" must have their rights protected.

If the Egyptian military didnt want riots in the streets then they would not have rounded up the Morsy government and imprisoned them

As far as I remember, large scale protests started long before people in the Morsi government were arrested.

The military intentionally pitted the two sides against each other. They want the bloodshed and a divided population where people are blaming each other for Egypts woes instead of the military junta that runs the place is mighty convenient.

Why do I get the feeling that , regardless of how the army handled the situation, you'd still be criticizing them?

- Allow both pro and anti-morsi groups to protest? They're dividing the nation!

- Crack down on protests? They're exerting their authority and stifling speech!

Look. I don't think anyone is completely happy with the situation... military coups can be messy. But Egypt is rather new at this whole idea of democracy and human rights.

[Rue]

The thing the constitution Morsy passed that much like Iraqs constitution was based on Islamic law passed a referendum. The majority of Egyptians wanted it. And all this talk about Morsy being a dictator is bunk... based on a decree made last novermeber that was rescinded.

The protesters are just sore losers.

If the Egyptian military didnt want riots in the streets then they would not have rounded up the Morsy government and imprisoned them, and then sat there and did nothing while mobs of people set on one another.

The military intentionally pitted the two sides against each other. They want the bloodshed and a divided population where people are blaming each other for Egypts woes instead of the military junta that runs the place is mighty convenient.

The thing the constitution Morsy passed that much like Iraqs constitution was based on Islamic law passed a referendum. The majority of Egyptians wanted it. And all this talk about Morsy being a dictator is bunk... based on a decree made last novermeber that was rescinded.

The protesters are just sore losers.

If the Egyptian military didnt want riots in the streets then they would not have rounded up the Morsy government and imprisoned them, and then sat there and did nothing while mobs of people set on one another.

The military intentionally pitted the two sides against each other. They want the bloodshed and a divided population where people are blaming each other for Egypts woes instead of the military junta that runs the place is mighty convenient.

That's an interesting and of course pro Muslim Brotherhood partisan analysis.

Morsi was democratically elected. he then tried to implement a dictatorship suspending the very rights that got him elected. You can pretend he did not do that but this is why the MAJORITY of Egyptians went back out into the street.

You can also pretend he represents the majority but he never did and in fact he never claimed to. He conceded unlike you that he was elected by a coalition of supporters many who did not agree with him and he pledged to those non Muslim Brotherhood supporters respect and tolerance then once elected tried to shut down their right to oppose his views.

Where were you when he tried to pass laws removing the constitution and appointing himself President on an indefinite basis?

Where were you when he attended a rally teling supporters Shiite Muslims were scum triggering off violence that killed Shiite Muslims.

Where were you when Coptic Christians were being discriminated against?

You want to try portray this man as a democratic victim of a military coups? Give it a rest.

Egypt has repeatedly done what has happened-elect politicians who then turn on their own people only to be replaced by the military.

When Gamel Nasser came to power he wrote years later in his biography that when he tride to form a civilian government all he heard from

his fellow citizens were requests to kill each other.

No you don't get to re-write history to pretend the military orchestrated this.

They did not. Morsi wrote his own downfall by choosing to turn on his own people and most importantly try impose a form of Islamic fundamentalism on a people who are politically nationalist but not supporters of Islamic fundamentalism according to the Muslim Brotherhood.

When Morsi got elected he ignored the economy and it is now non existent.

To understand Egypt is to understand its only foreign source of economy was tourism and that no longer exists.

70% of its funding is from the US and Saudi Arabia.

It has no capacity to feed its people and it has no water.

It is in effect ungovernable and for you to try portray Morsi as a victim of the military is b.s. He went out of his way to undo any democratic

freedom of expression. He tried to suspend the press, control the media and unilaterally impose a religious state. It failed.

You better explain why if the majority of people support Morsi why the majority are out on the streets cheering their military on.

Pretending that aint so doesn't undo it.

The fact is citizens do what they do in Egyot, turn to their military when their governments fail. They have been doing that for over 2,000 years.

Egypt has to solve its own problems.

The internal issues will be decided by Egyptians.

You should go back Assad in Syria instead. He claims to have been democratically elected. Likewise Hezbollah were democratically elected in the Lebanese parliament. Go support them. They are lovers of democracy right?

[-TSS-]

Perhaps in fledgling democracies they should have at first very short terms for presidents and parliaments so that if their new leaders turn out to be incompetent the people have sooner an opportunity to kick them out and don't have to start yet another revolution.

[Scotty]

Perhaps in fledgling democracies they should have at first very short terms for presidents and parliaments so that if their new leaders turn out to be incompetent the people have sooner an opportunity to kick them out and don't have to start yet another revolution.

The problem is it's very hard to get anything done in the short term, especially when the country was a basket case to begin with. Did Obama do anything in his first year that seemed to be helping the economy?