Helicopter Deal - F-35 All Over Again?

[Wilber]

Rue, the Tornado? It went out of production in 98.

[Guest Derek L]

Right....my bad...but it is remarkable to see the convergence you describe, regardless of the aircraft type. Such reflexive spasms of disapproval are too little too late in a game that has gone on for decades, across different ruling parties. Canada's CF-18s and CH-124s could star in their own version of a geriatric "Grudge Match".

Perhaps........But until ~2018 the Cyclone selection will leave a gapping hole within our armed forces, hopefully an interim fix will appear that will actually allow us to start transitioning out of the Sea Kings, fore currently the Sikorsky owned Cyclones in both Canada and New England are restricted to daytime/fair-weather, over land (well within sight of land) operation………That’s kind of a determent in a Maritime Helicopter, to say nothing of not actually being able to currently hunt submarines.

What’s another four years eh?

[waldo]

But until ~2018 the Cyclone selection will leave a gapping hole within our armed forces

What’s another four years eh?

and yet... not a 'Derek L' word of criticism directed toward Harper Conservatives for making the decision; for sticking with the Cyclone. Not a word of critical comment... Not One Single Word!

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[Guest Derek L]

A opinion piece from the the National Post:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/01/08/michael-byers-canada-could-have-obtained-world-class-helicopters-at-bargain-prices-but-the-conservatives-werent-interested/

Last September, after a full decade of delays, the Harper government finally announced that it was looking at alternative aircraft to replace the Sea King — including the AW101 — as it considered cancelling the Cyclone contract with Sikorsky. Officials travelled to the U.K. to see the AW101 in service with the British Royal Navy, where it is called the HM-1 Merlin.

Not surprisingly, Sikorsky fought back, agreeing to pay $88.6-million in penalties for delays and offering to restructure the procurement — with the first fully capable Cyclone now promised for 2018. The Harper government accepted the offer, probably hoping the least disruptive approach will help keep the procurement out of the news.

Not politics!!!

This takes us back to the Indian government’s recent cancellation of its contract for AW101s. AgustaWestland produces what is widely regarded as the best maritime helicopter in the world. It now faces having to layoff thousands of highly trained workers. Stephen Harper could have seized the opportunity to obtain bargain-price, world-class AW101s in very short order.

A competition would not be necessary: the EH101 was deemed fully compliant with Canada’s requirements, and the AW101 is an even more capable aircraft.

Our Conservative prime minister could have finally set aside the Liberals’ discredited and dangerous Cyclone procurement. He could have returned to the course so wisely charted by Brian Mulroney — and so foolishly abandoned by Jean Chrétien. Stephen Harper could, at long last, have actually replaced the Sea Kings.

I wonder if the opposition Liberals will start taking this approach:

“Harper Conservatives could have replaced our piss poor choice with the AW-101, which we cancelled in the 90s, but remained with the AMERICAN company so as to bury the story”…….I wouldn’t be surprised….

And that is why politics needs to be separated to the greatest possible extent from Canadian defence procurement…..This is why you’ll see both Democrats and Republicans get onboard programs together down South, or the opposing parties in the United Kingdom and Australia typically reach a consensus on long-term (long enough to outlive various Governments) and expensive programs…….it only makes sense.

[PIK]

other than the annual Harper photo-op trip to the Arctic, just what have Harper Conservatives actually done to support an (extended) Arctic sovereignty claim... particularly, in regards the actions taken by Russia; specifically:

Harper Conservatives continually project empty platitudes concerning Arctic sovereignty. Of course, fiscal realities prevail... instead of targeting monies toward domestic coast guard, search & rescue upgrades/improvements, ice-breakers and deep-water ports... toward supporting viable sovereignty claims, we get ongoing military procurement failures led by, most notably, the ongoing F-35 debacle. Worse yet, we get Harper Conservatives potentially interfering with the scientific based sovereignty claim process with it's idiotic publicity stunt to claim the North Pole --- Why Canada’s race to claim the North Pole could backfire

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He is also the 1st since deif to try and gets things moving and once the deficit is paid ,then you will see alot of action, we are getting close to the election, so he has to get going soon.

[Guest Derek L]

He is also the 1st since deif to try and gets things moving and once the deficit is paid ,then you will see alot of action, we are getting close to the election, so he has to get going soon.

Brian Mulroney also promised the stars to the Canadian Forces……

http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/vo8/no4/lajeunes-eng.asp

http://publications.gc.ca/collections/collection_2012/dn-nd/D2-73-1987-eng.pdf

........still waiting for those nuclear attack subs and the EH-101.

[waldo]

“Harper Conservatives could have replaced our piss poor choice with the AW-101, which we cancelled in the 90s, but remained with the AMERICAN company so as to bury the story”…….I wouldn’t be surprised….

And that is why politics needs to be separated to the greatest possible extent from Canadian defence procurement…..

allright! Credit due... I ragged you enough for not offering any criticism toward Harper Conservatives over the decision. Without accepting the full premise of your linked article, I will acknowledge that (separate from your ship procurement criticism) you are finally throwing a critical (albeit somewhat muted) bone towards Harper Conservatives military procurement.

[Guest Derek L]

allright! Credit due... I ragged you enough for not offering any criticism toward Harper Conservatives over the decision. Without accepting the full premise of your linked article, I will acknowledge that (separate from your ship procurement criticism) you are finally throwing a critical (albeit somewhat muted) bone towards Harper Conservatives military procurement.

More of a bipartisan, Pan-Canadian, critique of defence related procurement………If one follows British politics, especially related to the very costly replacement of their nuclear deterrent, the Queen-E aircraft carriers and the F-35, a consensus by and large was reached between both their Tories and New Labour surrounding the realities that said procurements transcend a given Government’s lifespan and ultimately in the spirit of what’s doing best for the nation…Lessons they learned the hard way in 1982.

Perhaps an approach the two grown-up Canadian political parties should follow.

[Derek 2.0]

Perhaps........But until ~2018 the Cyclone selection will leave a gapping hole within our armed forces, hopefully an interim fix will appear that will actually allow us to start transitioning out of the Sea Kings, fore currently the Sikorsky owned Cyclones in both Canada and New England are restricted to daytime/fair-weather, over land (well within sight of land) operation………That’s kind of a determent in a Maritime Helicopter, to say nothing of not actually being able to currently hunt submarines.

What’s another four years eh?

Well there you go:

Now, CBC News has learned the details of what the government has agreed to forego in order to conclude a long-awaited new deal with Sikorsky, and it includes a formerly mandatory safety measure: a 30-minute run-dry standard for its main gear box.

The importance of the ability to fly for 30 minutes after a loss of lubrication in the main gear box was reinforced by an investigation into a deadly 2009 crash of a Sikorsky-built helicopter.

[Topaz]

Since this is about Canada's Air force, what do you think of the foreign job program hiring foreign pilots to fly our jets and planes????? It's true, apparently we have a shortage of pilots, so the feds went overseas to get them. http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/06/23/air_force_hiring_foreign_pilots_to_fly_frontline_jets.html

[Derek 2.0]

Since this is about Canada's Air force, what do you think of the foreign job program hiring foreign pilots to fly our jets and planes????? It's true, apparently we have a shortage of pilots, so the feds went overseas to get them. http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/06/23/air_force_hiring_foreign_pilots_to_fly_frontline_jets.html

It's been a common practice, since Confederation, for all three services.

[Argus]

It's been a common practice, since Confederation, for all three services.

In war, maybe. This is ridiculous. It shows both how incompetent the military recruitment and training system is, and how much the government is starving them of funds.

[Derek 2.0]

In war, maybe. This is ridiculous. It shows both how incompetent the military recruitment and training system is, and how much the government is starving them of funds.

No, we (like most other first world nations poach other nations personal) maintain standards that can’t be met by recruiting regular Joe/Janes off the street…….I’ve known personally, quite well, former RAAF P-3 Orion aircrew that made the switch (to crew our CP-140s) , likewise, during the 90s, New Zealand actively recruited Canadian and British naval engineers once we started retiring the last of our steamers…….The Australians are currently recruiting from American and Commonwealth navies, qualified submariners to make-up shortfalls and attrition losses to their mining industry.

Simply put, in relation to this story, the RCAF can’t recruit qualified aircrew to fill postings in the training establishments off of Canadian streets.

[Argus]

Simply put, in relation to this story, the RCAF can’t recruit qualified aircrew to fill postings in the training establishments off of Canadian streets.

Why not?

Is the thought of flying fighter jets just so horrifying for all those educated young people who would far rather spend their careers in an 8 x 8 fabric covered box?

Edited June 24, 2014 by Argus

[Derek 2.0]

Why not?

Is the thought of flying fighter jets just so horrifying for all those educated young people who would far rather spend their careers in an 8 x 8 fabric covered box?

I have no idea, but those educated people covering boxes can’t be dragged off the street and retread a Colonel with ~20 years experience flying a given type of aircraft, and made instructors……..

The RCAF has no problem filling training quotas with pilot cadets (when they are short they defer the required University degree), but through natural attrition, at times, they do indeed have requirements for qualified instructors and aircrew……..No amount of money will make some kid out of high school a 20+ year experienced pilot overnight.

[Argus]

I have no idea, but those educated people covering boxes can’t be dragged off the street and retread a Colonel with ~20 years experience flying a given type of aircraft, and made instructors……..

The RCAF has no problem filling training quotas with pilot cadets (when they are short they defer the required University degree), but through natural attrition, at times, they do indeed have requirements for qualified instructors and aircrew……..No amount of money will make some kid out of high school a 20+ year experienced pilot overnight.

No need to. Presumably that colonel had a few majors under him. One of them does the job, then a captain steps up to take HIS place, and so on and so on. That's the way it's SUPPOSED to work.

[Derek 2.0]

No need to. Presumably that colonel had a few majors under him. One of them does the job, then a captain steps up to take HIS place, and so on and so on. That's the way it's SUPPOSED to work.

Well no, it doesn't work that way, especially when we’ve introduced new aircraft (CC-117s, CC-130J and the new Chinooks) and/or have small & unique capabilities (aerial tankers and MPAs) that don’t have a large and diverse talent pool to choose from……..

Simply put, if said Colonel packs it in, that does not mean the Majors below are qualified at that point to take over………..Even with the larger communities like fighters, at most, there are under 200 qualified pilots in that field in the RCAF right now…….after you’ve subtracted those on leave, courses, staff postings, postings to the various training establishments and deployment, you’ve very few left for the operational squadrons at home……..as such, holes in the training establishment are plugged with foreigners, namely from the Commonwealth, United States and finally NATO, allowing our junior pilots further time gaining experience in said operational squadrons.

As I said, this is far from a new practice, my own father (and many like him) were actively recruited from the Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm in the 1950s by both the RCN and RAN FAAs, when both were still in their infancy……..The only reason this is “newsworthy” is because of the TFW flap going on…