U.S. is spying on its citizens and others

Hudson Jones · June 7, 2013

We all knew this. Well, I guess not all, but most of us knew it.

Now it's in the open.

U.S. is tapping calls and mining data from Verizon, Google, Apple, Facebook and other American companies.

Next time you write an email to your momma, don't forget to say hi to Obama or another clown that they put into the office.

NSA collecting phone records of millions of Verizon customers daily

US security agency has direct access to Google, Facebook and Apple user data

Edited June 7, 2013 by Hudson Jones

GostHacked · June 7, 2013

I had already put those in the police state thread.

bush_cheney2004 · June 7, 2013

Oh my....say it ain't so....it can't be true. Naive people are co.....cute!

Edited June 7, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

Pliny · June 7, 2013

Oh my....say it ain't so....it can't be true. Naive people are co.....cute!

I wonder how much co-operation these corporations will give to the next administration when Obama and the Democrats are gone? (We can cross our fingers.)

GostHacked · June 7, 2013

I wonder how much co-operation these corporations will give to the next administration when Obama and the Democrats are gone? (We can cross our fingers.)

The better question is how much co-operation have these corporations have already given to previous administrations.

Context : Zuckerberg is an unethical SOB to begin with. Hacking Harvard computer systems, stealing information to put up on his public 'thefacebook' which was started there at Harvard. How ethical do you think he is now?

The best thing to do here is to not have a facebook account. I have followed the problems with Facebook, specifically regarding privacy and how the information is shared. IN the end your information is their commodity to trade and sell. By simply having a facebook account, you are helping them make money when they sell your information. That is not what people signed up for in the first place. I never had a facebook account and I have debated creating one for promotional purposes for my music, never had an interest in using Facebook as a personal thing.

I highly suggest people deactivate their accounts and leave Facebook en masse.

eyeball · June 7, 2013

I've never signed up for a Facebook account simply because I don't think I could handle the rejection if someone refused to be my friend. That said, I wonder how google feels about me reporting google+ invitations to create or join their circles as spam?

At the end of the day it'll probably be people who don't put their faces out there and who seek anonymity that draw state surveillance to themselves.

Oh and BTW, Obama and Vic Toews can both bite me.

bush_cheney2004 · June 7, 2013

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Canadians scramble to spoof their IP addresses to appear as Americans (to get things like American Netflix and Hulu). I guess watching U.S. media is more important than packet switching privacy.

Edited June 7, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

Hudson Jones · June 7, 2013

I wonder how much co-operation these corporations will give to the next administration when Obama and the Democrats are gone? (We can cross our fingers.)

Typical.

Thinking this is a democrat vs republican issue only shows the ignorance of how the system works. Go ahead and fight over the two party system. Americans should be more like BC2004 and accept that this is how it is and take it from the big man like good little citizens.

GostHacked · June 7, 2013

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Canadians scramble to spoof their IP addresses to appear as Americans (to get things like Netflix and Hulu).

I would advise sticking within the thread title/OP. Knowing that you have linked the forum rules in a couple other threads, pointing out clear violation of the forum rules, I thought I would help you out and let you know. Because I care, somewhat.

June 8, 2013

I would advise sticking within the thread title/OP. Knowing that you have linked the forum rules in a couple other threads, pointing out clear violation of the forum rules, I thought I would help you out and let you know. Because I care, somewhat.

It is sticking to the thread topic; we're supposed to be all bent out of shape because the U.S. government is spying on us, but people don't seem to care - they even try to get American IP addresses.

When one considers that there are 312+ million Americans, not to mention countless other nationalities out there using services such as those mentioned in the OP, I doubt the government is spending a whole lot of time caring what we all have to say. But I have to ask - if such spying is keeping people in line, wouldn't that be a good thing according to your line of thought? :huh:

bush_cheney2004 · June 8, 2013

It is sticking to the thread topic; we're supposed to be all bent out of shape because the U.S. government is spying on us, but people don't seem to care - they even try to get American IP addresses...

Thank you for explaining what I thought would be ironically obvious. Hooray for American cloaking devices !!

eyeball · June 8, 2013

When one considers that there are 312+ million Americans, not to mention countless other nationalities out there using services such as those mentioned in the OP, I doubt the government is spending a whole lot of time caring what we all have to say.

When one considers the size of the task it's taking on I doubt the government will be any more competent at it than anything else it does.

That said, it has been fairly adept at making so many human beings revile it.

Pliny · June 8, 2013

Hudson Jones, on 07 Jun 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

Typical.

Thinking this is a democrat vs republican issue only shows the ignorance of how the system works. Go ahead and fight over the two party system. Americans should be more like BC2004 and accept that this is how it is and take it from the big man like good little citizens.

I suppose there is some validity to the fact this is not entirely a left/right issue, however Obama is in the driver's seat and is accountable for the programs expansion - he could have ended it.

Michael Hardner · June 8, 2013

Context : Zuckerberg is an unethical SOB to begin with. Hacking Harvard computer systems, stealing information to put up on his public 'thefacebook' which was started there at Harvard. How ethical do you think he is now?

The best thing to do here is to not have a facebook account. I have followed the problems with Facebook, specifically regarding privacy and how the information is shared. IN the end your information is their commodity to trade and sell. By simply having a facebook account, you are helping them make money when they sell your information. That is not what people signed up for in the first place. I never had a facebook account and I have debated creating one for promotional purposes for my music, never had an interest in using Facebook as a personal thing.

I highly suggest people deactivate their accounts and leave Facebook en masse.

Strange that you went after Facebook specifically, though the allegations have chiefly been about Verizon.

Zuckerberg vehemently denies cooperation with any such program:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-205_162-57588312/facebooks-mark-zuckerberg-issues-statement-on-prism/

I want to respond personally to the outrageous press reports about PRISM:

Facebook is not and has never been part of any program to give the US or any other government direct access to our servers. We have never received a blanket request or court order from any government agency asking for information or metadata in bulk, like the one Verizon reportedly received. And if we did, we would fight it aggressively. We hadn't even heard of PRISM before yesterday.

When governments ask Facebook for data, we review each request carefully to make sure they always follow the correct processes and all applicable laws, and then only provide the information if is required by law. We will continue fighting aggressively to keep your information safe and secure.

We strongly encourage all governments to be much more transparent about all programs aimed at keeping the public safe. It's the only way to protect everyone's civil liberties and create the safe and free society we all want over the long term.

Pretty strong denial. Makes you wonder. There may be something else behind it, like the fact that Microsoft is at the EXTREME left of that time graph. Hmmmm. And Microsoft, unlike facebook, runs operating systems. That may explain how NSA can directly read servers without the knowledge of facebook, apple et al.

GostHacked · June 8, 2013

Strange that you went after Facebook specifically, though the allegations have chiefly been about Verizon.

Yes but only a day later we see the news releases about how Microsoft, Facebook, Apple and Google have been part of the whole surveillance operation called Prism. The focus on just Horizon here is way too narrow.

Also all this data is being obtained without warrants and without oversight. Violates the constitution, not that anyone really cares about the founding document on which the country was borne. Administrations of the past 20 years have slowly been marginalizing the constitution. Without that constitution there is no protection from the government. The government can held in check anymore.

Zuckerberg vehemently denies cooperation with any such program:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-205_162-57588312/facebooks-mark-zuckerberg-issues-statement-on-prism/

Based on what you know about him at Harvard, do you trust what he says now? I've seen other denials from people that turned out to be complete bull and they were lying every step of the way.

Pretty strong denial. Makes you wonder. There may be something else behind it, like the fact that Microsoft is at the EXTREME left of that time graph. Hmmmm. And Microsoft, unlike facebook, runs operating systems. That may explain how NSA can directly read servers without the knowledge of facebook, apple et al.

Of course he will deny it. But even if he is telling the truth, the admission is that intelligence services ARE monitoring through technology. Phone calls, text messages, this forum, ect ect ect are all used to collect data on us by the intelligence services. They are spying on us and now they are letting you know that they are and doing it without any legal oversight or repercussions because of marginalizing the constitution.

The main reason I think people don't quite get this, as they have really no idea how the technology works and how it is being used. In the 18 years I have been using the Internet and paying attention to technology and the progression of it, it still takes me aback on how much data mining the intelligence services get on us.

Another bit is the cooperation between lets say the CIA and CSIS. Either entity cannot spy on their own citizens (although it is a complete lie) but the CSIS shares the info with the CIA on who they are spying on. These are called loopholes.

Still no concern about the inundation of CCTV ? Start connecting some of those dots Mike and you may end up getting it.

Edited June 8, 2013 by GostHacked

Michael Hardner · June 8, 2013

Based on what you know about him at Harvard, do you trust what he says now? I've seen other denials from people that turned out to be complete bull and they were lying every step of the way.

Based on his self-interest, I don't see why he would react that way if it were indeed true, since there's a good chance it will come back to haunt him and he will lose status. He could have muted his denial, even as much as Apple has done. Or he could do a non-denial denial such as Rob Ford did to the crack allegations. There is always a reason to not lie, even for liars, ie. they can get caught.

Still no concern about the inundation of CCTV ? Start connecting some of those dots Mike and you may end up getting it.

I don't care about CCTV because cameras are in public, where anybody could be standing and watching. What "dots" do we need to connect ? That's a useless meme.

Warrantless and pervasive monitoring of all citizens in all ways is outside my comfort zone. Monitoring of individuals, with reason, and with a warrant is inside my comfort zone.

And - empty headed sloganeering that compare our open society with 1984, the Soviet Union, V for Vendetta are pure hyperbole. I usually dismiss anybody who throws out those easy slogans.

GostHacked · June 8, 2013

https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/timeline

Detailed time line of how this all came about..

https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/timeline

GostHacked · June 8, 2013

Warrantless and pervasive monitoring of all citizens in all ways is outside my comfort zone.

100% agreed. But this is exactly what is taking place here. If you take this stance, then none of this stuff should be acceptable to anyone.

Monitoring of individuals, with reason, and with a warrant is inside my comfort zone.

I agree 100% here as well. But hat comfort zone you want has been left in the dust some years ago.

Edited June 8, 2013 by GostHacked

GostHacked · June 8, 2013

We may need to revisit the bits about AT&T cooperating with the NSA for the spyrooms on AT&Ts major nodes.

This was back in 2004, or 2006, not quite sure.

You are no longer in that comfort zone.

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2006/04/70619

Edited June 8, 2013 by GostHacked

Michael Hardner · June 8, 2013

100% agreed. But this is exactly what is taking place here. If you take this stance, then none of this stuff should be acceptable to anyone.

I think you're right.

I agree 100% here as well. But hat comfort zone you want has been left in the dust some years ago.

Our comfort zones are very different, GH, but in this case they overlap - at a zone of non-comfort. Like a hot streetcar. Not comfortable.

GostHacked · June 8, 2013

I think you're right.

And I would have no problem looking like an idiot and a fool if this was not the case. I'd love to be wrong on this.

Our comfort zones are very different, GH, but in this case they overlap - at a zone of non-comfort. Like a hot streetcar. Not comfortable.

Some comfort zones are the same for all of us. This is one of them.

Argus · June 8, 2013

Warrantless and pervasive monitoring of all citizens in all ways is outside my comfort zone. Monitoring of individuals, with reason, and with a warrant is inside my comfort zone.

They're not monitoring citizens. The computers are scanning data streams for patterns. They don't know who you are and don't care. They don't care who is cheating on their spouse or taxes, who is a pervert or crook. They're not looking for such things, and they will never have the resources to do so. If you're not planning on blowing anybody up you don't really need to fear your emails or posts will come to the attention of a human being.

Michael Hardner · June 8, 2013

They're not monitoring citizens. The computers are scanning data streams for patterns. They don't know who you are and don't care. They don't care who is cheating on their spouse or taxes, who is a pervert or crook. They're not looking for such things, and they will never have the resources to do so. If you're not planning on blowing anybody up you don't really need to fear your emails or posts will come to the attention of a human being.

Remains to be seen. Pattern search isn't the same thing as archiving private emails for later search, I concur, but we're getting some conflicting information on that right now.

bush_cheney2004 · June 8, 2013

....Pretty strong denial. Makes you wonder. There may be something else behind it, like the fact that Microsoft is at the EXTREME left of that time graph. Hmmmm. And Microsoft, unlike facebook, runs operating systems. That may explain how NSA can directly read servers without the knowledge of facebook, apple et al.

Anybody with the requisite skill and tools can access servers and other data stores. The very nature of the technology makes this possible. The intelligence gathering business has always been hampered by too much volume and noise, but analysis tools, bandwidth, and CPU cycles are now fast to catch up. One of the oldest signals intelligence defenses is to send and mask data with overwhelming amounts of obfuscating clutter.

I think President Obama made it quite clear yesterday that it's a political no brainer to collect and analyze such data when faced with domestic and international threats. It was the same way during the Cold War, only limited by the technology of the day.

FaceBook is free and voluntary AFAIK, and any expectations of "privacy" are very naive. There is no privacy when it comes to such things...and that means other interests besides the government. Get over it.

Michael Hardner · June 8, 2013

FaceBook is free and voluntary AFAIK, and any expectations of "privacy" are very naive. There is no privacy when it comes to such things...and that means other interests besides the government. Get over it.

I am more 'liberal' than many when it comes to tolerating surveillance for the purposes of security, but I do have a line. Unlimited government access and storage of private messages with no accountability is over my line. Do you have a line ?