Bus beheader Vince Li should be allowed to go to the beach: doctor

[Guest American Woman]

To me it is disturbing that the majority of people expressing their opinion about Li want to punish him more severely than a drunk driver. What am I missing here?

I don't get what you're saying here. You think driving drunk and killing someone is worse than cutting someone's head off and eating them?

And for clarification purposes, I was clearly referring to those who are an alcoholic, which is also an illness.

Edited June 10, 2013 by American Woman

[waldo]

And for clarification purposes, I was clearly referring to those who are an alcoholic, which is also an illness.

in the context of this thread and its emphasis on the mentally ill and 'not criminally responsible (NCR)', what is your purpose/intent in introducing and continuing to speak of drunk driving/alcoholism?

[waldo]

Again, I'm torn, and I don't know how to balance myself the extent to which their mental illness discharges them from responsibility and my belief that they have some knowledge they are doing something wrong.

it's very clear from your OP... from your other posts in this thread, you're not "torn" at all! As for your so-called "belief" that, as you say, "they have some knowledge they are doing something wrong"..... why do you hold such a belief and what is it based upon?

[bush_cheney2004]

"NCR" does not dismiss civil liability and responsibility for his actions.

[waldo]

Li is responsible for his actions

"NCR" does not dismiss civil liability and responsibility for his actions.

for clarity, in what regard do you assign responsibility?

"Sick" pedophiles don't get such sympathy....why should Li?

in the context of this thread and its emphasis on the mentally ill and 'not criminally responsible (NCR)', what is the relevance and basis for you drawing an analogy to pedophiles?

[bush_cheney2004]

for clarity, in what regard do you assign responsibility?

in the context of this thread and its emphasis on the mentally ill and 'not criminally responsible (NCR)', what is the relevance and basis for you drawing an analogy to pedophiles?

It's fairly obvious....removed from the "NCR" legal framework, Li is still responsible and liable for his actions as a matter of civil law. If he had any wealth, the victim's lawyers would show no mercy. Maybe the pedophiles should seek equal protection relief for their acts, eh?

[waldo]

It's fairly obvious....removed from the "NCR" legal framework, Li is still responsible and liable for his actions as a matter of civil law. If he had any wealth, the victim's lawyers would show no mercy.

as you say, separate from the dispatched criminal liability, within Canadian law, do you have examples of successful liability claims resulting from civil law pursuits against those found 'not criminally responsible (NCR)'?

Maybe the pedophiles should seek equal protection relief for their acts, eh?

again, in the context of this thread and its emphasis on the mentally ill and 'not criminally responsible (NCR)', what is the relevance and basis for you repeatedly drawing an analogy to pedophiles?

[cybercoma]

It is not about punishing Li, but rather assuring public safety

No it isn't. Public safety is already assured by the doctors caring for him. It's about punishing him more severely and rejecting the professionals' educated opinions in favour of emotional knee-jerk reactions to a very horrific a gruesome killing.

[carepov]

It is not about punishing Li, but rather assuring public safety in the wake of his psychotic attack and murder. Li is responsible for his actions, and government is responsible for public safety.

What is the risk to public safety? - I don't see it, Li is being treated and supervised.

[bush_cheney2004]

as you say, separate from the dispatched criminal liability, within Canadian law, do you have examples of successful liability claims resulting from civil law pursuits against those found 'not criminally responsible (NCR)'?

again, in the context of this thread and its emphasis on the mentally ill and 'not criminally responsible (NCR)', what is the relevance and basis for you repeatedly drawing an analogy to pedophiles?

My understanding is that the current 'NCR" Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card is relatively new "restatement" by the courts with the burden of mens rea shifting to the prosecution or plaintiff. It is unclear to me why you think pedophiles would be unable to muster a similar defense.

[bush_cheney2004]

No it isn't. Public safety is already assured by the doctors caring for him. It's about punishing him more severely and rejecting the professionals' educated opinions in favour of emotional knee-jerk reactions to a very horrific a gruesome killing.

Hey, I liked going to the beach as much as the next guy/gal.....does he get a free bucket and shovel too ? Don't forget the sunscreen !

[cybercoma]

Hey, I liked going to the beach as much as the next guy/gal.....does he get a free bucket and shovel too ? Don't forget the sunscreen !

I'm sure you have an intelligent point to make, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to decipher it from this gibberish.

[bush_cheney2004]

What is the risk to public safety? - I don't see it, Li is being treated and supervised.

Treated for what....cannibalism ? Mentally ill people that are a demonstrated threat to themselves or others are a public safety risk.

[bush_cheney2004]

I'm sure you have an intelligent point to make, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to decipher it from this gibberish.

Then please, for the love of God and Country, just stop reading and responding to my posts. Is it really that hard to (not) do?

[carepov]

I don't get what you're saying here. You think driving drunk and killing someone is worse than cutting someone's head off and eating them?

It depends.

a) how "responsible" was the drunk driver for his/her actions? Was it a first, second, tenth offense?

b.) what were the consequences? one death, two, five, a bus filled with children?

All I am saying is that it makes no sense to me that most people feel that we should

- not allow Li to take escorted supervised outings.

- never let him out of custody

My understanding is that some drunk drivers that kill people get off with a slap on the wrist.

Does this make sense to you?

Edited June 10, 2013 by carepov

[carepov]

Treated for what....cannibalism ? Mentally ill people that are a demonstrated threat to themselves or others are a public safety risk.

He has schizophrenia. It was untreated and now it is treated. Again, what is the risk?

[PIK]

I like when doctors say he is fine and will never do it again........................unless he quits his pills. .

[Guest American Woman]

It depends.

a) how "responsible" was the drunk driver for his/her actions? Was it a first, second, tenth offense?

b.) what were the consequences? one death, two, five, a bus filled with children?

Of course it doesn't "depend." A drunk driver is held accountable, even when the driver is ill with alcoholism. Same goes for a drug addict. If they kill someone, they are held responsible. They, too, are ill with addiction and not able to make rational judgments, but they are held accountable.

All I am saying is that it makes no sense to me that most people feel that we should

- not allow Li to take escorted supervised outings.

- never let him out of custody

It makes no sense to me that he be let out of custody. First of all, he refused to get help, so I think he should be held to some degree of accountability. Secondly, and most importantly since the other is just my opinion and not the law, too many schizophrenics stop taking their meds, and we saw what Li is capable of doing when not on meds.

My understanding is that some drunk drivers that kill people get off with a slap on the wrist.

Does this make sense to you?

Absolutely not, but that's really a different issue from "NCR.' Canada won't even allow a non-citizen with a DUI back when they were young and foolish into Canada, presumably because they pose too great a threat to Canadians' lives. Makes no sense to think that Li poses less of a threat.

[waldo]

Of course it doesn't "depend." A drunk driver is held accountable, even when the driver is ill with alcoholism. Same goes for a drug addict. If they kill someone, they are held responsible. They, too, are ill with addiction and not able to make rational judgments, but they are held accountable.

again: "in the context of this thread and its emphasis on the mentally ill and 'not criminally responsible (NCR)', what is your purpose/intent in introducing and continuing to speak of drunk driving/alcoholism... and now, drug addiction?"

[carepov]

I like when doctors say he is fine and will never do it again........................unless he quits his pills. .

What if he was administered injections, would that resolve your concerns?

Also, are you for or against supervised outings for Li?

[waldo]

I'm sure you have an intelligent point to make, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to decipher it from this gibberish.

why bother to even give him the courtesy of a presumed "intelligent point"? He's clearly in full-blown troll-mode!

[bush_cheney2004]

He has schizophrenia. It was untreated and now it is treated. Again, what is the risk?

That's part of the problem.....the potential risk is great and the public is being asked to take such risk(s), not Li. His "treatment" includes a leash for life.

[bush_cheney2004]

why bother to even give him the courtesy of a presumed "intelligent point"? He's clearly in full-blown troll-mode!

Agreed.....why can't he resist my "charms" ? Some here dost protest too much !!

[waldo]

My understanding is that the current 'NCR" Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card is relatively new "restatement" by the courts with the burden of mens rea shifting to the prosecution or plaintiff.

It is unclear to me why you think pedophiles would be unable to muster a similar defense.

I asked you for examples within Canadian law... is this your way of saying you beaked off about civil liability without actually having an example of a successful civil liability case brought against a person found not criminally responsible?

as before, as again, "in the context of this thread and its emphasis on the mentally ill and 'not criminally responsible (NCR)', what is the relevance and basis for you repeatedly drawing an analogy to pedophiles?"

[Pliny]

I like when doctors say he is fine and will never do it again........................unless he quits his pills. .

Of course, his meds may need tweaking too. Dud-unh! Dud-unh! Dud-unhduduhnduduhnduduhnh! We aren't closing the beach!!

We have made such progress in the humanities, to the point where our experts in the field can't even define normalcy, let alone achieve it.

No. I don't think we are at the point where we can release someone maniacal enough to commit murder without any apparent motive back into society. I would probably only do that if I purposely wanted to create a fearful environment to the point of paranoia - increasing my value and importance to society....oops...sorry! Did I say that out loud? Don't let that get around.