Days of Riots in Stockholm

[Hudson Jones]

Remember, I had never heard of Pam Gellar until you mentioned her, and her only recommendation to me was that she disagreed with you. That seems a reasonable position for anyone to take. I still have not read or heard anything by her.

This goes to show who shares the same ideas and beliefs as you when it comes to Muslims

Your second paragraph is so condescending as to be unworthy of a reply. Ironic too, given that you try to defend radical Islam by invoking "ignorance, misinformation and support-at-all-cost tribalism and zealotry" on the part of others.

When did I defend radical Islam? Speaking out against your tribalism and zealotry does not mean that I defend the fanatics and extremists on the other side.

Yes, Bradford, England. What news pieces?

Is there some news piece you can link to show that people's lives are in danger if they travel to these predominantly Muslim neighbourhoods because they are non-Muslim?

Edited May 28, 2013 by Hudson Jones

[Army Guy]

How many times has our government issued travel warnings to these so call peaceful muslim nations

[Guest]

This goes to show who shares the same ideas and beliefs as you when it comes to Muslims

Actually, It doesn't. You're grasping.

When did I defend radical Islam? Speaking out against your tribalism and zealotry does not mean that I defend the fanatics and extremists on the other side.

Radical Islam is the only Islam I am talking about. I did tell you that in another post. I have no tribalism or zealotry. I wouldn't have moved to Canada if I wanted to stick with my tribe.

Is there some news piece you can link to show that people's lives are in danger if they travel to these predominantly Muslim neighbourhoods because they are non-Muslim?

No. If you read the original post, I told MH it was anecdotal. I also never said lives were in danger. Why do need to make stuff up to make a point? I said feared to go. I didn't say they feared being killed. Although I wouldn't say it couldn't happen.

[Hudson Jones]

No. If you read the original post, I told MH it was anecdotal. I also never said lives were in danger. Why do need to make stuff up to make a point? I said feared to go. I didn't say they feared being killed. Although I wouldn't say it couldn't happen.

You said their fears do exist and they are justified. How are they justified?

[Guest]

You said their fears do exist and they are justified. How are they justified?

By that I meant that I believed the people who told me, as opposed to MH, who seemed to think I didn't.

Edited May 29, 2013 by bcsapper

[Hudson Jones]

By that I meant that I believed the people who told me, as opposed to MH, who didn't seemed to think I didn't.

Did they go into detail in how and why they were in fear to go into these neighbourhoods? Had they experienced something to justify this fear?

Edited May 29, 2013 by Hudson Jones

[Guest]

Did they go into detail in how and why they were in fear to go into these neighbourhoods? Had they experienced something to justify this fear?

Yeah, loads, but due to privacy concerns, I can't tell you.

It was conversations I had a few years back while visiting relatives and friends. If you don't believe me, I'm okay with that. Really.

If you don't believe them, I'm okay with that too. But I do.

Edited May 29, 2013 by bcsapper

[Hudson Jones]

Yeah, loads, but due to privacy concerns, I can't tell you.

It was conversations I had a few years back while visiting relatives and friends. If you don't believe me, I'm okay with that. Really.

If you don't believe them, I'm okay with that too. But I do.

Due to privacy reasons? You don't have to mention any names.

I'm white and I've lived in England before moving back to Canada. There is certainly a noticeable difference in population of Muslims, especially religious Muslims in cities in England when compared to Canadian cities. Last year I spent some time in London, walking in many Muslim neighbourhoods while helping a friend and his group doing research in regards to the impact of immigration and religion in Europe. Coincidentally, this was around the time a few videos were released showing "Muslim Patrols" in East London harassing and intimdating people who were drinking or were wearing so-called revealing clothing. I didn't run into any of these patrols myself, even though we looked for them, but there is no denying that they do exist. From what we gathered, majority of the Muslims do not see them as their representative. Even one of the top imams made a speech, condemning these kids and speaking out against their actions.

Published on 18 Jan 2013

This Friday sermon presents an Islamic response to the so called Muslim vigilantism being carried out by a minority of Muslims who claim to be implementing a 'shari'ah patrol' in the London borough of Tower Hamlets.

I recommend checking this link, which covers the Muslim Patrol issue and the perspective of Muslims on it.

I should mention that the only time I felt unsafe in England was after attending a couple of football matches. One in Manchester and the other in London. All of them involved drunk hooligans who didn't like the jerseys I wore. Good thing I was traveling in groups.

[Guest]

Due to privacy reasons? You don't have to mention any names.

I'm white and I've lived in England before moving back to Canada. There is certainly a noticeable difference in population of Muslims, especially religious Muslims in cities in England when compared to Canadian cities. Last year I spent some time in London, walking in many Muslim neighbourhoods while helping a friend and his group doing research in regards to the impact of immigration and religion in Europe. Coincidentally, this was around the time a few videos were released showing "Muslim Patrols" in East London harassing and intimdating people who were drinking or were wearing so-called revealing clothing. I didn't run into any of these patrols myself, even though we looked for them, but there is no denying that they do exist. From what we gathered, majority of the Muslims do not see them as their representative. Even one of the top imams made a speech, condemning these kids and speaking out against their actions.

Published on 18 Jan 2013

This Friday sermon presents an Islamic response to the so called Muslim vigilantism being carried out by a minority of Muslims who claim to be implementing a 'shari'ah patrol' in the London borough of Tower Hamlets.

I recommend checking this link, which covers the Muslim Patrol issue and the perspective of Muslims on it.

I should mention that the only time I felt unsafe in England was after attending a couple of football matches. One in Manchester and the other in London. All of them involved drunk hooligans who didn't like the jerseys I wore. Good thing I was traveling in groups.

The privacy thing was a joke.

If you don't deny they do exist, what are we arguing for? I never said they were the majority of Muslims (far from it) and I never said they were supported by the majority. Just that stories were told. You even saw videos, which is more than I could offer.

You'll get no argument from me about safety at football matches, either. It's not nearly as bad as it was before they brought in all seated stadiums, but it can still get dodgy when football and alcohol are mixed.

Edited May 30, 2013 by bcsapper

[Hudson Jones]

And in my home town of Bradford there are Muslim areas where infidels fear to go, especially women, if they are not burkared up.

Anecdotal, of course.

Their fear is not justified. This is what I'm trying to say.

[Guest American Woman]

Their fear is not justified. This is what I'm trying to say.

How does "a group of young men attempting to create 'Muslim zones' [...] continue to patrol neighbourhoods and stop people they believe are not conforming to Islamic law" say that people's fear is not justified?

[Guest]

... "Muslim Patrols" in East London harassing and intimdating people who were drinking or were wearing so-called revealing clothing.

... a minority of Muslims who claim to be implementing a 'shari'ah patrol' in the London borough of Tower Hamlets.

Their fear is not justified. This is what I'm trying to say.

I don't understand your position here. The examples you gave are pretty much exactly what I was talking about.

Edited May 31, 2013 by bcsapper

[Hudson Jones]

How does "a group of young men attempting to create 'Muslim zones' [...] continue to patrol neighbourhoods and stop people they believe are not conforming to Islamic law" say that people's fear is not justified?

They are a very small number of people who have been condemned by Muslim groups. What they did was/is not a regular occurrence and there have been arrests.

Sixth arrest in ‘Muslim patrol’ investigation

Link

[Hudson Jones]

When it comes to safety, going into those neighbourhoods is not like going into Harlem in the 70's and 80's or going to Southcentral in the 90's. Not to justify their actions but what they did was harass and intimidate people verbally. No one was physically abused by any of these self-proclaimed Muslim vigilantes.

[Hudson Jones]

Furthermore, London has several violent neighbourhoods and none, except for maybe Tower Hamlets, would be considered predominantly Muslim:

London is home to the UK's ten most violent places to live

- Lewisham is the most violent place to live in the country

- Plagued by youth knife crime, murder and public disorder

- Lambeth, Hackney, Newham and Tower Hamlets also among the lease peaceful

- Study also shows sharp drop in crime over last ten years

Link

The main cause for the violence? Social division and extreme poverty, and not religion. Which is a theme all around the world.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Hudson Jones

[Rue]

They are a very small number of people who have been condemned by Muslim groups. What they did was/is not a regular occurrence and there have been arrests.

Sixth arrest in ‘Muslim patrol’ investigation

Link

Your attempt to justify terrorist and illegal criminal behaviour in the name of Islam once again speaks for itself.

1-The total number of acts or total number of people engaged in these acts does not by itself or in itself determine whether these acts are terrorist, coercive and criminal-you would have us believe that these acts however are not terrorist, coercive or criminal because you subjectively have determined you don't feel there have been enough of these acts.

2-You repeat the same subjective proclamation that these acts are "irregular". No wait...maybe you are suggesting instead that since these extremists are constipated their acts are not terrorist and coercive in nature.

3-Oh but wait, no problem right "Hudson Jones" the signigicance of the acts and elements of the behaviour in those acts went poof because some people were arrested.

Your latest attempt to try apologize and condone extremists in the name of Islam trying to break criminal laws, terrorize and coerce people and try impose their extremist views of Islam on people speaks for itself.

Oh but wait, I can hear you now suggesting that if some extremist Jewish settlers on the West Bank intimidate Palestinians its no big deal because they got arrested and they did not amount to more than a handful. Um uh um uh no wait, in previous posts when it comes to Israelis you did not say that. You used the very opposite arguement to the one you are using now.

Say now that selectivity is something else.

Your agenda is blatant. Good luck selling this one door to door.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Rue

[Guest]

Of course, it's not all bad in my home town.

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/10456870.Mosque_to_host_special_service_in_memory_of_Drummer_Lee_Rigby/

[Guest American Woman]

Furthermore, London has several violent neighbourhoods and none, except for maybe Tower Hamlets, would be considered predominantly Muslim:

The main cause for the violence? Social division and extreme poverty, and not religion. Which is a theme all around the world.

Who said that people don't have fears about going into those neighborhoods too? Who said Islam was the only cause of violence? I can't understand why you feel the need to dismiss it when the violence is the result of Islamic extremists. Do you dismiss poverty in the same way?

You yourself verified that extremist Muslims are the reason for fear in Bradford in some instances, just as bcsapper said; and after reading about the problem, I now understand why some would have such fears.

Furthermore, it's not "religion" that the problem - it's extremism, and Islam has a unique problem in that regard right now, mainly because of the violent aspect of the extremists and the movement that they have to impose their will on others.

Edited June 1, 2013 by American Woman

[-TSS-]

Those say that the riots had nothing to do with immigration and everything to do with poverty and deprivation, please explain to me why were there almost no ethnic Swedes running amok. Furthermore, had there not been insane immigration-policy Sweden has carried out during the past 40 years or so would there have been ethnic Swedes running rampant because of poverty and deprivation?

[Hudson Jones]

You yourself verified that extremist Muslims are the reason for fear in Bradford in some instances, just as bcsapper said; and after reading about the problem, I now understand why some would have such fears.

Furthermore, it's not "religion" that the problem - it's extremism, and Islam has a unique problem in that regard right now, mainly because of the violent aspect of the extremists and the movement that they have to impose their will on others.

Those involved in what I brought up are a very small number of people who have been condemned by Muslim groups and they have been arrested. Not only that but they were not found to be violent. They used verbal intimidation. What they did was/is not a regular occurrence, so to try to make it sound like it's a regular occurrence, instead of what it really is, is incorrect. So the videos and the amount of times these things happen do not legitimize the fear of going into those neighbourhoods because of the so-called Muslim extremists.

[Guest American Woman]

Those involved in what I brought up are a very small number of people who have been condemned by Muslim groups and they have been arrested. Not only that but they were not found to be violent. They used verbal intimidation. What they did was/is not a regular occurrence, so to try to make it sound like it's a regular occurrence, instead of what it really is, is incorrect. So the videos and the amount of times these things happen do not legitimize the fear of going into those neighbourhoods because of the so-called Muslim extremists.

A "very small number" of very active people can still be intimidating. Who are you to determine others' fears? Are you openly gay? Are you a woman? Who are you to judge if they should, or shouldn't, feel intimidated/threatened by "a small number" of extremists coming at them? Who are you to say their fear is not legitimate?

Muslim patrols stalking British streets could become “a lot more dangerous” and perhaps even willing to maim or kill, the head of an anti-extremism organisation has warned.

Five people, including two teenagers, were arrested in London this month after a group calling itself the Muslim Patrol posted footage on YouTube showing a gang hurling abuse at a homosexual man and described white women as "naked animals with no self–respect".

But their alleged offences could be just the tip of the iceberg, according to Mr Nawaz. “The Muslim patrols could become a lot more dangerous and, perhaps willing to maim or kill if they are joined by battle-hardened jihadis,” he wrote. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9836109/Muslim-patrols-could-become-more-prevalent-and-more-violent-warns-anti-extremist.html

Furthermore, the number of arrests is not necessarily indicative of the numbers who are involved.

...the group responsible for the now infamous 'Muslim Patrol' videos has been subject to police action, resulting in five arrests last week.

Since then, however, a seventh 'Muslim Patrol' video has come to light.

Though it is not possible to say with certainty that the newest video was recorded after recent media and police interest, the video features a number of comments which would suggest that the latest clip is indeed a reaction to the public backlash....

Also notable is a subtle difference in style. Specifically, there is less evidence of intimidation and harassment of citizens, and more time dedicated to issuing threats/stated intentions. It should also be noted that the video is replete with firearm and explosive sound-effects. http://www.thecommentator.com/article/2644/_christianity_can_go_to_hell_says_new_muslim_patrol_video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UkuzEUVqIDo

Nothing to fear there. Because Hudson Jones says so.

As a side note, "a very small number" of western troops have done wrong, but that hasn't stopped you from vilifying the whole - which no one here has done. The fact that the military and said countries condemn such acts appears to mean nothing to you.

But again. You confirmed the validity of bcsapper's anecdote. I, for one, appreciate the clarification that you provided. I completely understand those who had/have fear of entering said neighborhoods in Bradford.

Edited June 2, 2013 by American Woman

[Hudson Jones]

A "very small number" of very active people can still be intimidating. Who are you to determine others' fears? Are you openly gay? Are you a woman? Who are you to judge if they should, or shouldn't, feel intimidated/threatened by "a small number" of extremists coming at them? Who are you to say their fear is not legitimate?

Muslim patrols stalking British streets could become “a lot more dangerous” and perhaps even willing to maim or kill, the head of an anti-extremism organisation has warned.

Five people, including two teenagers, were arrested in London this month after a group calling itself the Muslim Patrol posted footage on YouTube showing a gang hurling abuse at a homosexual man and described white women as "naked animals with no self–respect".

But their alleged offences could be just the tip of the iceberg, according to Mr Nawaz. “The Muslim patrols could become a lot more dangerous and, perhaps willing to maim or kill if they are joined by battle-hardened jihadis,” he wrote. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9836109/Muslim-patrols-could-become-more-prevalent-and-more-violent-warns-anti-extremist.html

Furthermore, the number of arrests is not necessarily indicative of the numbers who are involved.

...the group responsible for the now infamous 'Muslim Patrol' videos has been subject to police action, resulting in five arrests last week.

Since then, however, a seventh 'Muslim Patrol' video has come to light.

Though it is not possible to say with certainty that the newest video was recorded after recent media and police interest, the video features a number of comments which would suggest that the latest clip is indeed a reaction to the public backlash....

Also notable is a subtle difference in style. Specifically, there is less evidence of intimidation and harassment of citizens, and more time dedicated to issuing threats/stated intentions. It should also be noted that the video is replete with firearm and explosive sound-effects. http://www.thecommentator.com/article/2644/_christianity_can_go_to_hell_says_new_muslim_patrol_video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UkuzEUVqIDo

Nothing to fear there. Because Hudson Jones says so.

As a side note, "a very small number" of western troops have done wrong, but that hasn't stopped you from vilifying the whole - which no one here has done. The fact that the military and said countries condemn such acts appears to mean nothing to you.

But again. You confirmed the validity of bcsapper's anecdote. I, for one, appreciate the clarification that you provided. I completely understand those who had/have fear of entering said neighborhoods in Bradford.

- No one has been physically harmed

- There is no evidence that the video was recorded after the arrests

- Muslim communities and their leaders have all condemned and distanced themselves from these people

The fear of going to these neighbourhoods for not being Muslim is unjustified.

Attacks and violence on Muslims, because they are Muslim is a bigger problem in England. Why? Because they are more rampant and they include physical violence and property attacks. Right wing groups such as English Defense League and BNP are two of the larger groups who attack and abuse minorities, especially Muslims on a regular basis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4FPsCdDOK0

Violence against Muslim is also happening in your own back yard, American Woman.

A Quiet Campaign of Violence Against American Muslims - Peter Beinart

Edited June 2, 2013 by Hudson Jones

[Guest American Woman]

The fear of going to these neighbourhoods for not being Muslim is unjustified.

That's your opinion. An opinion which, to my observation, is completely biased. If it were the other way around, if it were Christians doing to Muslims, you would be all over it.

[Hudson Jones]

That's your opinion. An opinion which, to my observation, is completely biased. If it were the other way around, if it were Christians doing to Muslims, you would be all over it.

The fear is as unjustified as someone who has a fear of spiders.

A few kids videoing themselves verbally bullying people on the streets is nothing compared to the violence that happens outside of the Muslim community in England or the violence the Muslim community receives because they are Muslim. There is more violence on Muslims in England than this make belief picture that you and your ilk try to sell from the so-called Muslim extremists.

[Guest American Woman]

The fear is as unjustified as someone who has a fear of spiders.

Thanks for proving my point. To compare women and gays who are harassed to a fear of a spider proves a bias totally and completely. And again, if it were the reverse, if it were Christians/Jews doing it to Muslims, you'd see it for what it is in a heartbeat.

Edited June 3, 2013 by American Woman