Why are people so hostile to unions?

[Pliny]

This is the fundamental paradox of socialism. It is simply not possible for people to live what we call a middle class existence without masses of people lower on the income scale providing the goods and services that the middle class wants/needs. If the wages of these masses of low wage workers rises then the standard of living for the 'middle class' drops.

We have set up a global society where national borders create the illusion that 'equal' societies can exist but it is simply an illusion where the poor are removed from the accounting because they live in another country.

And Obama is doing his best to ensure America is not more than equal.

[MadX]

Thank God in some cases. You mean government chooses when it enforces laws?It's rampant, is it? Do they just bring this to your attention and not the government's attention or is the government

just not interested?A simple yes, I believe government should use privilege and bias as an economic tool, would have sufficed.

I already know why you think they should.Really? Is that a proven fact?

Do you know why Walmart pays more than the minimum wage? So people that work at small and medium businesses will flock to their doors for a better wage and Walmart doesn't care if the minimum wage is raised fifty cents or a dollar they still pay a better wage. They lobby government to raise minimum wages to increase the labour pool for them. Increasing the minimum wage means a lot of small businesses will be laying off people if not closing their doors. How is that helping?

Walmart doesn't pay above minimum wage in my home province. It's the bare minimum here. They treat their employees like crap too, my buddy used to work for them.

[MadX]

And Obama is doing his best to ensure America is not more than equal.

Obama is a conservative. You don't believe all that crap about him being a socialist. His healthcare reform was just a huge "b**w job" to the insurance companies to quote Bill Maher. Obama is a moderate conservative, he just looks like a socialist to americans because their political spectrum is skewed so far to the right.

[MadX]

Thank God in some cases. You mean government chooses when it enforces laws?It's rampant, is it? Do they just bring this to your attention and not the government's attention or is the government

just not interested?A simple yes, I believe government should use privilege and bias as an economic tool, would have sufficed.

I already know why you think they should.Really? Is that a proven fact?

Do you know why Walmart pays more than the minimum wage? So people that work at small and medium businesses will flock to their doors for a better wage and Walmart doesn't care if the minimum wage is raised fifty cents or a dollar they still pay a better wage. They lobby government to raise minimum wages to increase the labour pool for them. Increasing the minimum wage means a lot of small businesses will be laying off people if not closing their doors. How is that helping?

If small businesses are offered tax cuts to raise wages this will offset the higher cost of labour.

[Fletch 27]

Well then if LARGE businesses employing HUNDREDS of people were offered "Tax Cuts" to raise wages, this would exponentially offset the higher cost of labor.. (Toyota Cambridge as an example of how this works)..

If small businesses are offered tax cuts to raise wages this will offset the higher cost of labour.

[Canuckistani]

Minimum wage is a entry wage not a living wage. Raise it more and whatever mom and pop store we have will be gone.

Replaced by what? The demand for what they sell will still be there. Just prices rise a bit.

[Fletch 27]

Walmart...

Replaced by what? The demand for what they sell will still be there. Just prices rise a bit.

[TimG]

If small businesses are offered tax cuts to raise wages this will offset the higher cost of labour.

No it won't because majority of small businesses make zero profit (i.e. they pay all excess out to the owners as wages). Raising the minimum wage would simply take money out of the pocket of the business owner or force the business owner to increase prices.

[Canuckistani]

Walmart...

You mean Walmart doesn't pay minimum wage? The only thing the keeps Walmart in check is low minimum wage. I doubt that very much. If the economics are there, Walmart is coming and mom and pops are gone no matter what the min wage. And conversely.

[Michael Hardner]

Minimum wage is a entry wage not a living wage. Raise it more and whatever mom and pop store we have will be gone.

I don't think that's true. There's always a demand for services & goods provided by small businesses today, and business can adapt to conditions such as higher minimum wage.

[Canuckistani]

No it won't because majority of small businesses make zero profit (i.e. they pay all excess out to the owners as wages). Raising the minimum wage would simply take money out of the pocket of the business owner or force the business owner to increase prices.

And since this would be an across the board wage hike, all small business owners would be in the same boat - prices would rise slightly and it's all good. In fact with low wage employees being able to spend a bit more, it would increase business at the small businesses, bring in more profit.

A business owner who takes his profit in wages is an idiot, since small business taxes are lower than corporate taxes. Some provinces have 0 tax for small business.

[Michael Hardner]

No it won't because majority of small businesses make zero profit (i.e. they pay all excess out to the owners as wages). Raising the minimum wage would simply take money out of the pocket of the business owner or force the business owner to increase prices.

Seems strange that higher wages would work in other countries then. As I said, business will adapt. If some of them die, then the strong survive, etc. etc.

[Canuckistani]

I don't think that's true. There's always a demand for services & goods provided by small businesses today, and business can adapt to conditions such as higher minimum wage.

And, since low wage workers would earn more, they would have more money to spend, more sales for business. And more taxes going to the govt, less govt money going out to low wage workers in govt supports.

[PIK]

Never ran a small business before have you?

Replaced by what? The demand for what they sell will still be there. Just prices rise a bit.

[Fletch 27]

Ahh, only the "low minimum wage"? They pay MORE than minimum wage BTW and turn PROFITS... That's pretty bad huh... Quantities of scale my friend..

You mean Walmart doesn't pay minimum wage? The only thing the keeps Walmart in check is low minimum wage. I doubt that very much. If the economics are there, Walmart is coming and mom and pops are gone no matter what the min wage. And conversely.

[PIK]

Again, you have not ran asmall business. The big box stores can swallow it where the small can not raise prices anymore. Alot of people made 12/hr working in a small store where they are now making 10 and part time at places like wal mart. And the small guy is gone. Box stores have killed main street stores in small towns. I think to many people here must be unionized ,because I see some have no idea how hard it is on the small guy. It seems the harder you work the worse it is.

And since this would be an across the board wage hike, all small business owners would be in the same boat - prices would rise slightly and it's all good. In fact with low wage employees being able to spend a bit more, it would increase business at the small businesses, bring in more profit.

A business owner who takes his profit in wages is an idiot, since small business taxes are lower than corporate taxes. Some provinces have 0 tax for small business.

[Boges]

Everyone demonizes Wal-Mart because it does best what everyone is doing.

People who don't shop at Walmart because they believe all their mercy is crap from China and their workers get paid dirt better not shop at Loblaws, the Bay, Metro and any other retail location in your local mall.

The reason I like Wal-Mart is because it's truly a one-stop shop. You need medicine, toiletries, housewares, food, electronics? You can get it all at one spot. If I just want food, there are other places that have comparable, if not lower, prices that I can go that are closer to me.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Boges

[TimG]

And since this would be an across the board wage hike, all small business owners would be in the same boat - prices would rise slightly and it's all good. In fact with low wage employees being able to spend a bit more, it would increase business at the small businesses, bring in more profit.

You seem to understand that there are two competing factors: price rises which can effectively cancel out the benefits from wage increases by reducing the purchasing power of those wages. In a closed system your claim that there would be a net benefit from higher minimum wages is categorically false. However, we don't live in a closed system and businesses and people have the option of purchasing goods and services from countries with lower labour costs. This will mitigate the effect of locally driven price increases but it will reduce employment (i.e. fewer people will be working for those higher wages).

[WWWTT]

In that aspect it probably wouldn't but wages would be higher, job satisfaction would be higher, poverty would be lower, and workplace bullying would be reduced. I never said unions were perfect but I can tell you what a non-unionized environment is like and its horrible. I think tenure is important but it shouldn't be the only determining factor in whether someone gets a job. So I agree with you on that point.

You are correct!

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Here's a picture that I like,it adds a lot!

WWWTT

[MadX]

No it won't because majority of small businesses make zero profit (i.e. they pay all excess out to the owners as wages). Raising the minimum wage would simply take money out of the pocket of the business owner or force the business owner to increase prices.

The owners wages would be the businesses' profits, its the same thing. Who would disagree with higher wages for workers and lower taxes for small business. It's a win win situation.

[Canuckistani]

Never ran a small business before have you?

25 employees - guess it was a larger small business. Paid well above minimum wage.

[Fletch 27]

I'm sure that is EXACTLY what it is like at big bad companies that are non union like, Toyota Canada, Honda Canada, Blackberry, etc.etc. Those poor people.

I was at the Blackberry Christmas party at the ACC where Tragically Hip Opened for Van-Halen.... It was attrocious

Here's a picture that I like,it adds a lot!

WWWTT

[MadX]

25 employees - guess it was a larger small business. Paid well above minimum wage.

Good point, not all small businesses pay minimum wage.

[Canuckistani]

The owners wages would be the businesses' profits, its the same thing. Who would disagree with higher wages for workers and lower taxes for small business. It's a win win situation.

Small business taxes are already 0 in some provinces, so I don't know how much room there is to move there. BC just raised it's min wage from $8 to $10.25 over a year, and I see many fine small businesses doing just fine. If a small business can only survive by paying starvation wages, it should not be in business in the first place. Otherwise, why not just have no min wage law, and open the border to anybody that wants to come here and work for $5 an hour say. Business would be booming by that theory, Canada not so much.