Guest American Woman Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 The title of this thread is actually "inflammatory," when it comes right down to it. If Iraq is America's "shame," it's also the United Kingdom's shame, to start with, and it's also Canada's. Because one didn't publicly support the war doesn't lessen their involvement - ie: "shame" for the purpose of this thread - that is associated with it. Even though I didn't support the invasion, however, I see no "shame" in having rid Iraq of Saddam. That things didn't miraculously turn wonderful overnight - and that's really all that ten years amounts to regarding such things - isn't surprising, and doesn't mean that no good will come of it. I still hope for the best and don't wish for the days when Saddam was in power. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 what do perceived violations of a 91 ceasefire agreement have to do with the U.S. bypassing the UN and self-authorizing its armed forces to, "defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq"? Where was the imminent threat to the national security of the U.S.? It was in the same place as Canada's when it bombed Iraq, Serbia, and Libya. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 The title of this thread is actually "inflammatory," when it comes right down to it. If Iraq is America's "shame," it's also the United Kingdom's shame, to start with, and it's also Canada's. Because one didn't publicly support the war doesn't lessen their involvement - ie: "shame" for the purpose of this thread - that is associated with it. OK, but I think Canada's officially recognized "National Shame" is the torture and murder of Somalians in 1993. Even though I didn't support the invasion, however, I see no "shame" in having rid Iraq of Saddam. That things didn't miraculously turn wonderful overnight - and that's really all that ten years amounts to regarding such things - isn't surprising, and doesn't mean that no good will come of it. I still hope for the best and don't wish for the days when Saddam was in power. Agreed...there really is no shame felt by the collective U.S. the way it is implied here. Our death bot drones are still "shamefully" killing people around the world....with president Obama's blessing. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Shady Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 what do perceived violations of a 91 ceasefire agreement have to do with the U.S. bypassing the UN and self-authorizing its armed forces to, "defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq"? Where was the imminent threat to the national security of the U.S.? Not perceived violations. Actual violation of agreed upon terms. Quote
punked Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 Not perceived violations. Actual violation of agreed upon terms. As long as we ignore in the agreed upon terms the enforcer is the UN not the US right and that UN passed a resolution which the US then went outside of. Oh you don't actually care about the agreed upon terms nor do you understand them so do I bother? Quote
punked Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 It wasn't about WMDs and you know it. WMDs were a pretext for the conclusion of a US/UK Iraq containment policy that pre-dated Bush and was no longer acceptable post 9/11. Really because Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz said: "For bureaucratic reasons, we settled on one issue - weapons of mass destruction - because it was the one reason everyone could agree on." So the Bush admins reason was WMDs. Maybe you think their were other reasons but they didn't share them with the public. Powell lied and people died. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 Really because Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz said: "For bureaucratic reasons, we settled on one issue - weapons of mass destruction - because it was the one reason everyone could agree on." So the Bush admins reason was WMDs. Maybe you think their were other reasons but they didn't share them with the public. Powell lied and people died. I think Colin Powell retired with a full military and State dept. pension. Lying pays well...... Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 As long as we ignore in the agreed upon terms the enforcer is the UN not the US right and that UN passed a resolution which the US then went outside of. Oh you don't actually care about the agreed upon terms nor do you understand them so do I bother? The US can do whatever it pleases in this regard, as it has always been the bulk of UN "muscle" anyway. The UN also sanctioned/legitimized the post invasion transitional government and rebuilding efforts. Canada was first in line for Iraqi oil services contracts. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
punked Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 The US can do whatever it pleases in this regard, as it has always been the bulk of UN "muscle" anyway. The UN also sanctioned/legitimized the post invasion transitional government and rebuilding efforts. Canada was first in line for Iraqi oil services contracts. Cool story bro. Where are those WMDs? Quote
waldo Posted March 20, 2013 Author Report Posted March 20, 2013 The title of this thread is actually "inflammatory," when it comes right down to it. If Iraq is America's "shame," it's also the United Kingdom's shame, to start with, and it's also Canada's. Because one didn't publicly support the war doesn't lessen their involvement - ie: "shame" for the purpose of this thread - that is associated with it. Even though I didn't support the invasion, however, I see no "shame" in having rid Iraq of Saddam. That things didn't miraculously turn wonderful overnight - and that's really all that ten years amounts to regarding such things - isn't surprising, and doesn't mean that no good will come of it. I still hope for the best and don't wish for the days when Saddam was in power. shame is a most fitting word, it's one I'm reading and hearing much of this last week, directly from Americans via American media sources/outlets. You really should own it, rather than trying to keep perpetuating a false equivalency of other country's degrees of support/engagement. of course, all you have to fall back on is the only remaining talking point - 'regime change... ding-dong, Hussein is dead'. Of course, that preemptive regime change go-to sets your country up for perpetual war... a lot of regimes to change out there, hey? And, again, Hussein presented no imminent threat to your country's national security. what? No miraculous overnight turnaround??? No neocon flavoured "American's will be greeted as liberators"... "the war will pay for itself through oil"... "moral clarity backed by military strength"... you can keep hoping for the best - I'm sure the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's killed and the millions forced to relocate thank you for their country's devastation. I'm sure Iran also relishes its new-found close ties. Quote
Shady Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 As long as we ignore in the agreed upon terms the enforcer is the UN not the US right and that UN passed a resolution which the US then went outside of. Oh you don't actually care about the agreed upon terms nor do you understand them so do I bother? No, the terms weren't being enforced by the UN. They have no means to enforce them. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 Cool story bro. Where are those WMDs? Ask Saddam...he's dead. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 No, the terms weren't being enforced by the UN. They have no means to enforce them. Excellent point...as if the protesting peanut galleries around thew world were going to enforce a security resolution of any kind. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 ....you can keep hoping for the best - I'm sure the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's killed and the millions forced to relocate thank you for their country's devastation. I'm sure Iran also relishes its new-found close ties. Many do.....some having relocated to the United States. Even Saddam liked Doritos. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Shady Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 (edited) Punked can read minds, so he knows that Colin Powell lied. Of course, Saddam Hussein would never lie about anything. But yeah, Colin Powell. Edited March 20, 2013 by Shady Quote
punked Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 (edited) No, the terms weren't being enforced by the UN. They have no means to enforce them.Dumbest thing said in this thread. That whole Powell presentation was about the US getting the go ahead to enforce the ceasefire under the UN terms which they never did.So the justification for the war was Iraq broke the terms if the ceasefire (kinda) so in order to teach them a lesson for the terrible crimes of breaking the ceasefire the US breaks the terms of ceasefire. WOW that's some real Shady logic there. Edited March 20, 2013 by punked Quote
punked Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 Punked can read minds, so he knows that Colin Powell lied. Of course, Saddam Hussein would never lie about anything. But yeah, Colin Powell. I know Powell lied because there were no WMDs Shady. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 I know Powell lied because there were no WMDs Shady. So what do you think should be done beside paying his handsome pension ? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
punked Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 So what do you think should be done beside paying his handsome pension ? I think we learn our lessons about listening to Republican leaders. Quote
Shady Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 Dumbest thing said in this thread. That whole Powell presentation was about the US getting the go ahead to enforce the ceasefire under the UN terms which they never did. So the justification for the war was Iraq broke the terms if the ceasefire (kinda) so in order to teach them a lesson for the terrible crimes of breaking the ceasefire the US breaks the terms of ceasefire. WOW that's some real Shady logic there. YES! The US to enforce the ceasefire. The US. Quote
Shady Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 I know Powell lied because there were no WMDs Shady. You sure he wasn't just wrong? Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 I think we learn our lessons about listening to Republican leaders. What about the Democrat leaders ? "We" should listen to them instead ? Joe Biden and many others supported the Iraq War from the 'git go. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Shady Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 I think we learn our lessons about listening to Republican leaders. I think we learn our lessons about listening to Republican leaders. You mean like Bill Clinton in 1998? And Hillary Clinton in 2001? And John Kerry in 2002? Quote
waldo Posted March 20, 2013 Author Report Posted March 20, 2013 I know Powell lied because there were no WMDs Shady. it seems as far as Powell will go is to offer his regret over his UN presentation... of course, he couches that by balancing "the greater lies" with one of his own, suggesting "it was the best information we had"!!! Of course, neocon inspired/flavoured information... at its best! Quote
Shady Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 it seems as far as Powell will go is to offer his regret over his UN presentation... of course, he couches that by balancing "the greater lies" with one of his own, suggesting "it was the best information we had"!!! Of course, neocon inspired/flavoured information... at its best! Where did Bill Clinton get his information in 1998 and 1999? Also, why did he sign the Iraqi Liberation Act? Quote
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