IS GOD A DELUSION? The Debate That Never Was

[g_bambino]

You though the "bull" was the vulgar part of that word that needed to be bleeped out?

Hilarious.

[g_bambino]

Dawkins could not defend his own book.

You can't defend your own beliefs.

We're still waiting for you to explain whether you consider people who belong to Christian denominations other than your own (with their own unique doctorine based on different interpretations and readings of the Bible) to be real Christians.

[DogOnPorch]

You can't defend your own beliefs.

We're still waiting for you to explain whether you consider people who belong to Christian denominations other than your own (with their own unique doctorine based on different interpretations and readings of the Bible) to be real Christians.

My question to betsy...nice person, btw...has always been why is 'God' making new stars? Wasn't that all done with during Creation? Why is God hitting the 'New Game' button on his/her/its giant cosmic XBox version of Sim Earth? Also...why are there (were there) Population I, II, and III stars of various types of metallicity? Haven't got a good answer out of betsy on that one....

[betsy]

My question to betsy...nice person, btw...has always been why is 'God' making new stars? Wasn't that all done with during Creation? Why is God hitting the 'New Game' button on his/her/its giant cosmic XBox version of Sim Earth? Also...why are there (were there) Population I, II, and III stars of various types of metallicity? Haven't got a good answer out of betsy on that one....

here DOP, I'm in a rush....

Full Question

Astronomers claim new stars are being created all across the universe, and naturalists claim new species are constantly coming into existence, yet Genesis 2:1-2 says that God finished the work of Creation. These two claims seem incompatible. Who's wrong, the scientists or the Bible?

Answer

Neither. It's proper to speak in two ways of God "creating," and the scientists and naturalists you mention are using the term differently than does Genesis. Let's be precise as to what Genesis says: "Thus the heavens and the earth and all their array were completed. Since on the seventh day God was finished with the work he had been doing, he rested on the seventh day from all the work he had undertaken. So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work he had done in creation."

Notice that the passage neither says nor implies that no additional creations would be forthcoming, but simply that the Lord's initial work of creation (see Gn 1:1-31 for details) had been completed. Common sense tells us that not everything God would create was created at that point. After all, each human soul is a later creation, since the soul is created directly by God at the moment of conception--it does not derive from the souls of the parents.

But God creates in another sense. In Genesis 1 the Lord brought into being, ex nihilo, all matter that would ever exist. Over the ensuing eons, he created the various parts of the physical universe out of that primordial matter. Stars, comets, and nebulae, for example, have formed, disintegrated, and re-formed (many times, presumably) from the same matter. The same is true of plant and animal life on earth in all its myriad forms.

We realize that that cow standing in a pasture has come into existence only recently. The cow is truly one of God's creations, though it was created by God indirectly; the constituent elements which make up its body have existed since God's initial ex nihilo creation eons ago and have been "recycled" countless times prior to making up this particular cow.

A carpenter rightly may say he has "made" a chair although, of course, he fashioned it from preexisting wood which came a preexisting tree. God is like that carpenter as he creates new stars or new human beings, yet he is unlike him because he, unlike the carpenter, also created the raw materials with which he works.

With this in mind we can see that Genesis emphasizes the finality of God's creation of primordial matter and of all the first plants and animals and human beings with which he adorned the newly created earth, while scientists point out (whether they realize it or not) that God continues to create new things in the material realm in the sense that he fashions them from the preexistent matter of his initial creation. Both uses of the idea are correct.

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/if-god-finished-the-work-of-creation-then-why-are-new-stars-and-species-still-coming-

[GostHacked]

Well there you go Dog.

God created everything, and anything else that is created after is also created by god. Convenient really.

[The_Squid]

...all the first plants and animals and human beings with which he adorned the newly created earth...

There were no plants or animals on the newly created earth. These came into existence billions of years later. Newly created earth didn't even have an atmosphere that would sustain any life...

[DogOnPorch]

Well there you go Dog.

God created everything, and anything else that is created after is also created by god. Convenient really.

Including cows, apparently. House cats, poodles and kangaroos. Plus managed to deposit them regionally after a flood.

But, it fails to really address stellar metallicity. This proves the Universe is at least double the age of our own star. As well, it doesn't say why 'God' isn't satisfied with humans as a 'creation'.

But, as an atheist...I really don't bother with such questions unless talking with a 6 day Creationist.

[Pliny]

But, as an atheist...

It's a real trick to convince yourself that you aren't there.

[Sleipnir]

My question Why is God hitting the 'New Game' button on his/her/its giant cosmic XBox version of Sim Earth?

Because 'he' screwed it up with humans so 'he's' starting over again.

[kimmy]

It's a real trick to convince yourself that you aren't there.

What new dumbassery is this?

Is that a new rehash of "atheists thing that *they* are god" line that dumb-people like to repeat because it sounds sophisticated? It's not sophisticated. It's a dumb-guy's impression of something a sophisticated person would say. It combines daytime talkshow-level pop-psychology with low-rent sophistry. Shit, Pliny, get it together.

-k

[Pliny]

What new dumbassery is this?

Is that a new rehash of "atheists thing that *they* are god" line that dumb-people like to repeat because it sounds sophisticated? It's not sophisticated. It's a dumb-guy's impression of something a sophisticated person would say. It combines daytime talkshow-level pop-psychology with low-rent sophistry. Shit, Pliny, get it together.

-k

You are aware that you are there, aren't you?

[kimmy]

You are aware that you are there, aren't you?

Yes. Do you have a point, or are you trying to imitate August by being "too hip for the room"?

-k

[DogOnPorch]

It's a real trick to convince yourself that you aren't there.

I think it is one of the highest states of being we humans can strive for...understanding where we actually are in the Universe. What is behind it all is up for grabs, frankly. Some folks say they have all the answers. I'd say nobody knows. But, I think as humans we should be wary of applying anthropomorphic concepts to the Universe. It's a VERY large place and it is the height of our human conceit to imagine were the be-all end-all product of it...especially with overwhelming evidence of evolution.

My other problem with God as practiced by humans* is that it tends to focus on what happens in the so-called afterlife. It's all death cult stuff if you boil it down to the bare bones...with the odd exception. Like our Universe isn't cool enough. No...there has got to be a place where one is elevated to the deity's actual side like a some social undesirable granted membership to a country club. If a Nigerian prince tried to sell you this jib-jab...you know what you'd do...lol.

* There's a lot of 'gods' out there.

[DogOnPorch]

Here's a bit of fun...randomly generate star systems according to a range in stellar mass. One solar mass is assumed to be a G class star type Notice that planets with atmospheres are rare but not that rare in this model. Earth-like planets are extremely rare. But, when you have a billion monkeys...

http://fast-times.eldacur.com/StarGen/RunStarGen.html

Edited March 6, 2013 by DogOnPorch

[Canuckistani]

My other problem with God as practiced by humans* is that it tends to focus on what happens in the so-called afterlife. It's all death cult stuff if you boil it down to the bare bones...with the odd exception. Like our Universe isn't cool enough. No...there has got to be a place where one is elevated to the deity's actual side like a some social undesirable granted membership to a country club. If a Nigerian prince tried to sell you this jib-jab...you know what you'd do...lol.

* There's a lot of 'gods' out there.

I doubt there's a human being who hasn't wondered about what happens after death. And that really seems to be religion's job - to give us some meaning to life and death besides being little biorobots whose only reason for being to make more biorobots. I doubt too many people have approached death totally equanimous with the idea that this it it, the end. Easier to say you believe that when the end is not so near. The old no atheists in foxholes idea. And of course most people would hope that if they somehow continue after their body dies, the experience will be better than in this life. It's where the God of many Christians is truly a monster, consigning most people to an eternity of torment. What kind of being does that?

[betsy]

I think it is one of the highest states of being we humans can strive for...understanding where we actually are in the Universe. What is behind it all is up for grabs, frankly. Some folks say they have all the answers. I'd say nobody knows. But, I think as humans we should be wary of applying anthropomorphic concepts to the Universe. It's a VERY large place and it is the height of our human conceit to imagine were the be-all end-all product of it...especially with overwhelming evidence of evolution.

My other problem with God as practiced by humans* is that it tends to focus on what happens in the so-called afterlife. It's all death cult stuff if you boil it down to the bare bones...with the odd exception. Like our Universe isn't cool enough. No...there has got to be a place where one is elevated to the deity's actual side like a some social undesirable granted membership to a country club. If a Nigerian prince tried to sell you this jib-jab...you know what you'd do...lol.

* There's a lot of 'gods' out there.

Understanding that we are in the unuverse is one thing....but understanding how the universe came to be is quite another.

[betsy]

I think it is one of the highest states of being we humans can strive for...understanding where we actually are in the Universe. What is behind it all is up for grabs, frankly. Some folks say they have all the answers. I'd say nobody knows. But, I think as humans we should be wary of applying anthropomorphic concepts to the Universe. It's a VERY large place and it is the height of our human conceit to imagine were the be-all end-all product of it...especially with overwhelming evidence of evolution.

My other problem with God as practiced by humans* is that it tends to focus on what happens in the so-called afterlife. It's all death cult stuff if you boil it down to the bare bones...with the odd exception. Like our Universe isn't cool enough. No...there has got to be a place where one is elevated to the deity's actual side like a some social undesirable granted membership to a country club. If a Nigerian prince tried to sell you this jib-jab...you know what you'd do...lol.

* There's a lot of 'gods' out there.

How do you know it's a "death cult" stuff? What do you know about the afterlife?

[betsy]

All the rhetorics by almost the same bunch are so very......"dawkinesque."

[GostHacked]

All the rhetorics by almost the same bunch are so very......"dawkinesque."

More like Hitchens-esque, since you started it about Hitchens. It would be nice if you got your atheists right.

[DogOnPorch]

Understanding that we are in the unuverse is one thing....but understanding how the universe came to be is quite another.

And you have no clue how it came about, either. Just faith that a Bronze Age myth is correct.

[DogOnPorch]

How do you know it's a "death cult" stuff? What do you know about the afterlife?

Anything that promises a life after death is a death cult. You know as much as anyone re: what happens post-brain death.

[Mighty AC]

And you have no clue how it came about, either. Just faith that a Bronze Age myth is correct.

Wouldn't it be nice if the 'I believe it, therefor it is true' logic actually worked? Alas, I've been believing that I can play guitar like Jeff Martin really hard for quite sometime now and I can still only play a few chords.

[DogOnPorch]

Wouldn't it be nice if the 'I believe it, therefor it is true' logic actually worked? Alas, I've been believing that I can play guitar like Jeff Martin really hard for quite sometime now and I can still only play a few chords.

The background radiation from the Big bang has been measured. Science understands the process down to the final split second...ie the Planck epoch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CMB_Timeline300_no_WMAP.jpg

You have to have faith to deny what science has already found. You have to have faith to believe the Earth is only a few thousand years old rather than what what the rocks tell us. You have to have faith to believe there were no dinosaurs or anything else not described by Adam. You have to have faith that evolution is impossible while treating yourself for this year's flu virus and petting your pedigree pooch. Too much faith...

[Pliny]

Yes. Do you have a point, or are you trying to imitate August by being "too hip for the room"?

-k

Well, a rock does not have self-awareness. Does electricity? Is a chemical reaction aware of its transmogrification?

It's funny that a person would think of himself as a brain and think the brain could be aware of itself. Are you aware

of thought? I think therefore I am. Did Descartes think he was thought? He was aware of thought obviously and maybe

thought that's what he was. Perhaps we are just awareness? If you think you are a body then there is no awareness if

there is no body. If you think you are a brain there is no awareness if there is no brain. If you think you are thought then there is no awareness if there is no thought. If you think you are a rock there is no awareness if there is no

rocks.

So the point is it seems quite a task to tell yourself you are not aware of self and trying to prove to yourself you are a something that is aware. Does death of the body bring an end to self-awareness? I suppose if you were told you were

the body or the brain and thoroughly agreed to that then that would be true for you. The end of the awareness of being

aware. Is it a self inflicted sentence to being eternally aware there is nothing? I suppose that could describe hell.

Just some thoughts.

[DogOnPorch]

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

The Bible is clearly going with the concept that our type G2V star has somehow been around for some 13+ billion years which is impossible for a metal rich G class star. "God" doesn't even get around to making other stars...which Bronze Age humans had no clue about other than being points of light...until Genesis 14.

Edited March 6, 2013 by DogOnPorch