Feds to try to axe citizenship of overseas Canadian terrorists: Kenney

Topaz · February 8, 2013

There's only one problem I can see with having a dual citizenship and that is depending on the country, of course, what side does that person choose if Canada went to war against their birth country?? What if Canada had a draft, would that person have a right to refuse to fight against their birth country?

bush_cheney2004 · February 8, 2013

It's ok too. Getting a citizenship takes a long time in most countries. If someone wants to spend 3-10 years in one country after another, collect their citizenship, and then move on to get their next one, thus accumulating maybe 10 or so citizenships over their lifetime, why not?

In theory, they could rack these up concurrently depending on residency rules. I'm not sure it's a serial exercise.

guyser · February 8, 2013

Lots of technical problems, from incompatible citizenship oaths to mandatory military service (just ask Maher Arar). Extradition, taxes, conscription, child custody in divorce, and any other number of jurisdictional issues determined by citizenship.

So one answer and no problem.

Incompatible oaths.....nope, not a problem for Canada.

Mandatory mitlitary service...nope not a problem for Canada.

Extradition treaties are signed ...nope not a problem.

Tax codes...nope not a problem for Canada.

Child custody in divorce I can see that one a bit of a problem, but a problem for the country, nope.

Anyone else care to share?

bush_cheney2004 · February 8, 2013

Incompatible oaths.....nope, not a problem for Canada.

Guess again......

I swear (or affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen

Elizabeth II

,

Queen of Canada

, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of

Canada

and fulfill my duties as a Canadian citizen.

Compliance with this legally binding oath may be problematic for a dual citizen with a conflicting responsibility stemming from another citizenship.

guyser · February 8, 2013

Compliance with this legally binding oath may be problematic for a dual citizen with a conflicting responsibility stemming from another citizenship.

Ok, another one, swing and a miss.

Can anyone point to an actual problem with having dual citizenship ?

Edited February 8, 2013 by guyser

bush_cheney2004 · February 8, 2013

Ok, another one, swing and a miss.

Wrong...it's a real issue for government employees and positions requiring a security clearance.

Can anyone point to an actual problem with having dual citizenship ?

You already missed taxes....why add more that you do not understand ?

Sleipnir · February 8, 2013

What about those born in Canada?

Those born in Canada won't be able to have their citizenship taken away.

Bonam · February 8, 2013

Wrong...it's a real issue for government employees and positions requiring a security clearance.

Which is fine, and one may be unable to serve in certain jobs or get certain clearances if their foreign citizenships are deemed to interfere with that, but that doesn't say anything against holding dual citizenships. Being a citizen is not a guarantee of getting a security clearance or a government job. And one may be rejected from holding a certain job or getting a certain clearance for a whole variety of reasons.

Keepitsimple · February 8, 2013

I have never argued that we should not do something about the problem, we should do everything in our power to fix this problem short of making immigrants a second tier citizens.

Solutions could be some of the following:

*eliminating dual citizenship

*taxing people that live out side of Canada for prolonged periods of time

*Tightening up the rules for treason and the punishments so that they could be applied to those who commit them.

*Increase the wait time for citizenship

and many more...

You're falling into the trap that ends up having us do nothing at all. Instead of taking direct action against the miniscule number of people who would commit such heinous acts, you're suggesting rules and laws that negatively affect the 99.99% of people who follow the spirit of Canadian citizenship. Kicking a handful of miscreants out of the country does not create two-tiered citizenship. To go further, 99% of Canadians would like to be able to throw native-born Canadians out of the country if they committed acts of terrorism - but unfortunately, we're not allowed.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Keepitsimple

bush_cheney2004 · February 8, 2013

Which is fine, and one may be unable to serve in certain jobs or get certain clearances if their foreign citizenships are deemed to interfere with that, but that doesn't say anything against holding dual citizenships....

True, but the question was about any possible problems, and that would be just one of many. If any such restrictions were acceptable, then it wouldn't be a problem. Some CanAm dual citizens found/find themselves shut out of U.S. defense contractor employment because of failure to get the necessary security clearance, or they choose to formally renounce non U.S citizenship. This is a small group of people, but often they are well qualified and have much to contribute to engineering and research projects.

Signals.Cpl · February 8, 2013

Those born in Canada won't be able to have their citizenship taken away.

And that is exacty why this would make Canada a nation with two classes of citizens, the Canadian citizens and then the "Canadian citizen", should this law come in to play we would be one government away from deporting naturalized citizens for lesser and lesser crimes in order to "solve" problems by making the situation much worse.

Signals.Cpl · February 8, 2013

You're falling into the trap that ends up having us do nothing at all. Instead of taking direct action against the miniscule number of people who would commit such heinous acts, you're suggesting rules and laws that negatively affect the 99.99% of people who follow the spirit of Canadian citizenship. Kicking a handful of miscreants out of the country does not create two-tiered citizenship. To go further, 99% of Canadians would like to be able to throw native-born Canadians out of the country if they committed acts of terrorism - but unfortunately, we're not allowed.

But the whole point is that you are supporting making my citizenship be less than that of a Canadian born citizen. I might never commit a crime and serve this country faithfully for another 35 years but I will still be only a second class citizen.

Unless it has been fraudulently obtained a citizenship should be for life...by the idea you are supporting a naturalized citizen would never be capable of committing treason because the second they do so they will be striped of their citizenship, kinda hard to commit treason against someone else's country.

Keepitsimple · February 8, 2013

But the whole point is that you are supporting making my citizenship be less than that of a Canadian born citizen. I might never commit a crime and serve this country faithfully for another 35 years but I will still be only a second class citizen.

Unless it has been fraudulently obtained a citizenship should be for life...by the idea you are supporting a naturalized citizen would never be capable of committing treason because the second they do so they will be striped of their citizenship, kinda hard to commit treason against someone else's country.

So again.....I would ask - what would you do? Your suggestions penalize the 99.99% of new Canadians who abide by the spirit of Canadian citizenship. Is that what you want to do? Or do you do nothing and just complain with some technical argument. You're not a terrorist - what do you care? If you were in charge, what would you do?

Edited February 8, 2013 by Keepitsimple

g_bambino · February 8, 2013

Your suggestions penalize the 99.99% of new Canadians who abide by the spirit of Canadian citizenship.

They do no such thing. It couldn't violate a non-defined concept like "spirit of Canadian citizenship", anyway.

[ed.: c/e]

Edited February 8, 2013 by g_bambino

g_bambino · February 8, 2013

There's only one problem I can see with having a dual citizenship and that is depending on the country, of course, what side does that person choose if Canada went to war against their birth country?? What if Canada had a draft, would that person have a right to refuse to fight against their birth country?

That individual would have to make their choice of where to stay and what to abide by and live with the consequences.

cybercoma · February 8, 2013

Can anyone point to an actual problem with having dual citizenship ?

Since no one will answer you, let me. No. No they can't.

eyeball · February 8, 2013

Having one citizenship would certianly make it easier to make one law that blankets all Canadian citizens, preventing any Canadian citizen from entering a conflict other than in the service of Canada....

Speaking as an Earthling, I think having universal rights and one international criminal court that blankets all human beings might prevent a lot of countries from even starting conflicts never mind enter them.

eyeball · February 8, 2013

How? UN members have signed into international aw that everyone has a right to citizenship of a country. You strip a born Canadian and what will their citizenship be then?

Do humans have an obligation to be a citizen of a country? What about a corporation, they're people too apparently yet we seem to go out of our way to grant them the right to be as multi-national as possible, and let them move money and assets around the globe in a manner that suggests they're trying to stay one or two steps ahead of something.

I get the sense that if human beings started renouncing their nationality and citizenship and declared themselves to be Earthlings that most governments and countries would come unglued at the thought and brand them as international terrorists.

cybercoma · February 8, 2013

Think about this for a minute.

You have dual-citizenship, but you live primarily in Canada. Your job, your family, your home are here.

The government wrongly strips you of your Canadian citizenship while you are outside of the country.

Effectively, you are banned from entering Canada and returning to your job, family and home.

The chance of the federal government to abuse this is very high. This idea is on the heels of a recent report about the United States having a marked increase in stripping people of their citizenship while they are overseas, which results in exile.

No judge. No jury. No appeals.

The government should not have this much unchecked power. At a bare minimum there needs to be due process and an option to appeal.

g_bambino · February 8, 2013

Speaking as an Earthling, I think having universal rights and one international criminal court that blankets all human beings might prevent a lot of countries from even starting conflicts never mind enter them.

I think the fact that we have rights for all people in Canada and many courts, criminal and others, yet, there continue to be conflicts within Canada, rather proves you wrong.

g_bambino · February 8, 2013

The chance of the federal government to abuse this is very high.

Without proper definitions and limits, that is indeed the case.

guyser · February 8, 2013

Since no one will answer you, let me. No. No they can't.

One has tried and failed, however the fact remains it is not a problem for Canada as far as I can tell.

Some person may have some issues, but all in all, no one can show any problems for having dual citizenship .

Tempest in a tea pot.

cybercoma · February 8, 2013

Without proper definitions and limits, that is indeed the case.

I don't even know that an investigation or study would be worth the time and money. How many Canadians have dual-citizenship? How many times has there been any issues whatsoever with it? What kinds of issues are there besides, but including this recent example?

It would probably be best to start there to first identify the problem(s), in consultation with all of the stakeholders, before coming up with a knee-jerk solution to a problem that hasn't been clearly identified.

However, the Conservatives (hell, any government) are more interested in keeping up appearances than coming up with efficacious and practical solutions to real problems.

Signals.Cpl · February 8, 2013

So again.....I would ask - what would you do? Your suggestions penalize the 99.99% of new Canadians who abide by the spirit of Canadian citizenship. Is that what you want to do?

And your suggestion puts those same 99.99% of Canadians as second class citizens. This would tell people that you aren't really Canadian, and the suggestion to pay taxes is meant to remove more then just 0.01% of the bad apples but more like the tens of thousands who live outside the country and have the passport only as a way out in an emergency.

Or do you do nothing and just complain with some technical argument.

Being a second class citizen is not "some technical" argument, you want to devalue my citizenship fine but people begin to wonder why I should do everything right if I am not given the same rights as a Canadian born person. I moved here with my parents who have worked for everything since we moved here and have never depended on welfare or handouts, I have worked and paid taxes all of my working life and suddenly someone says that the citizenship of an immigrant is worth less then that of someone who is born here lived on welfare and government handouts, in and out of jail all their life... What you are saying is that one was born here and they are our problem while another being a naturalized citizen is not our problem but their problem...

You're not a terrorist - what do you care? If you were in charge, what would you do?

I fix the problem rather then make Canada an unattractive place for immigration. Would you treat your children this way? Telling one that if they mess up you will take care of them while the other if they mess up you will toss their behind in the street? Cant see how that might make one feel worth less then the other?

What is to stop the government in 10 years from deciding that immigrants are the problem and start stripping citizenship for lesser and lesser crimes? You kill someone you lose your citizenship, you punch someone you lose your citizenship... go 80km in a 50km zone you lose your citizenship... Oh you got sick? Sorry your citizenship has been revoked. Bankrupt? Out you go we don't need your kind here...

Bonam · February 9, 2013

Being a second class citizen is not "some technical" argument, you want to devalue my citizenship fine but people begin to wonder why I should do everything right if I am not given the same rights as a Canadian born person. I moved here with my parents who have worked for everything since we moved here and have never depended on welfare or handouts, I have worked and paid taxes all of my working life and suddenly someone says that the citizenship of an immigrant is worth less then that of someone who is born here lived on welfare and government handouts, in and out of jail all their life...

I fix the problem rather then make Canada an unattractive place for immigration. Would you treat your children this way? Telling one that if they mess up you will take care of them while the other if they mess up you will toss their behind in the street? Cant see how that might make one feel worth less then the other?

What is to stop the government in 10 years from deciding that immigrants are the problem and start stripping citizenship for lesser and lesser crimes? You kill someone you lose your citizenship, you punch someone you lose your citizenship... go 80km in a 50km zone you lose your citizenship... Oh you got sick? Sorry your citizenship has been revoked. Bankrupt? Out you go we don't need your kind here...

I'm in the same boat as you, immigrant to Canada (and now to the US as well). And I certainly agree that a naturalized citizen should not be relegated to some kind of second class citizen status. But I find a few problems with your argument:

- Canada is an attractive enough place for immigration, we have nothing to fear on that front

- Citizens of a country are not like children of a parent, it is a terrible analogy

But the most significant point is I don't buy the slippery slope argument in this case. Canada is a nation of laws, and if we had an official law for stripping people of citizenship in connection with terrorist and treasonous acts, such acts and the process for stripping citizenship would be well defined. There is no indication or reason to believe that a law designed to deal with terrorists would morph over time to apply the same penalty for lesser crimes, illnesses, or financial problems. Already, terrorists are liable to be killed by drones, assassinated by special forces, etc, whether they be Canadian citizens or not. I'm just not worried that a cop will strip me of my citizenship for speeding as a result of this law dealing with terrorists.

And we need to deal with terrorists, it's not a problem that should be ignored.