Why do we have monsters?

[Sleipnir]

Are all these people crazies?

I don't see how they cannot be crazy.

[kimmy]

To me it seems like a common thread among many of these people is that they're young men who are nobodies. Harris and Kliebold, Kimveer Gill, Marc Lepine, Anders Breivik, the Cho guy who shot up Virginia Tech...

Maybe they just felt like nobodies and wanted to find a way to make a mark in the world.

Ever see the movie "Fight Club"? It's about a young man who basically feels emasculated. He falls under the influence of a guy named Tyler Durden, who is the ultimate bad-ass. Tyler embodies all the things he wish he could be. Joining Tyler Durden's "fight club" gives the young man a way to express all the masculine energy that he had been repressing. The fight club fills a need for the participants that regular day to day life in our society just doesn't provide-- a way to express their masculinity. (although, things get pretty carried away...)

I can't help thinking that maybe Kliebold and Harris and Gill and Breivik and Cho and the rest were trying to find their own Tyler Durden.

-k

[betsy]

Good question. Here's some good advice, IMO; Dealing With Grief: Five Things NOT to Say and Five Things to Say In a Trauma Involving Children

http://www.huffingto..._b_2303910.html

But those are things not to say.

msj, on 15 December 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

Sure, and from a Christian perspective you can probably see the "joy" of 20 children getting the best Christmas present ever! They are now dancing with Jesus!

Yep, nothing better than "being with God" and "being in a better place" etc etc

Btw, for the record, I don't see violence as something "joyful." I don't see the way these children died as something to be "joyful" about.

MSJ's comment seems to make very light of the tragedy that happened.....what with the rolling eyes and all. In poor taste, I'd say.

I'm still curious to know what you'd say to console a grieving parent.

Edited December 15, 2012 by betsy

[Sleipnir]

I'm still curious to know what you'd say to console a grieving parent.

The opposite of what you don't say to a grieving parent.

[Guest American Woman]

But those are things not to say.

Along with things to say - did you even read it? Evidently you missed it in my post, too; repeating, with emphais: Five Things NOT to Say and Five Things to Say In a Trauma Involving Children

I'm still curious to know what you'd say to console a grieving parent.

You could read the link I provided.

Edited December 15, 2012 by American Woman

[eyeball]

But still so many questions....

are all these monsters copycats? If they are, why do they end up copycatting something like this?

It would help if you asked better questions. For starters people with a mental illness are not monsters, they are simply suffering from a disease. The only thing being copy-catted here is your mischaracterization of ill people as monsters.

Incidents like these are not surprising in a society with a taste for graphic violence and really poor almost medieval attitudes towards mental illness. The fact there's high powered weapons laying all over the place is just a coincidence, or so I'm often led to believe (just between you and me, I don't).

Edited December 15, 2012 by eyeball

[cybercoma]

From a Christian perspective, I can see how a Godless society is shaping up reflecting that - being God-less.

The United States is one the furthest things in the West from a godless society.

71% of Americans believe in God, while 56% of Americans say religion is very important in their lives. 58% of Americans pray every single day and 39% of Americans attend religious service at least once per week.

Godless society? I don't think so. It's one of the most religious societies in the West.

Source for statisitcs: The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life (2008) -- http://www.pewforum....our-State-.aspx

edit: typos

Edited December 15, 2012 by cybercoma

[The_Squid]

I don't think that there are more monsters.... They have access to better weaponry is one problem.

[guyser]

You can say nothing's new.....it's happened before. But whom are you kidding?

No one.

It has happened before, and will again. It isnt new, nor is it particularly shocking.

There is no doubt, we're living a different reality this days. From parents coldbloodedly drowning their children, to strangers casually killing as many as they can.

Oh theres doubt. MAss killings have gone down since the peak of 1929.

Funny that huh?

Why do we have monsters? And why do we have so many suddenly turning up at this rate?

Is it in the water we drink? Why?

Accordong to some , idiots all mind you, it s the removal of god from schools . Those people should be publically bitch slapped.

This guy has some words to say about it.

http://news.yahoo.com/no-rise-mass-killings-impact-huge-185700637.html

[WIP]

Yep. There seems to be three or four threads about this now,

And that's one of the things that make it so hard to get involved in a hot topic on this board! There usually ends up with 15 different threads on the same topic. It's like with the M.E. and area threads; by the time I notice one, there are three or four others that are identical, and I don't know which one to drop in on.

It's easier to get involved in a discussion on an ignored topic that fewer people are interested in. Some forums that are tightly regulated, will cut off redundant new threads on the same topic, and either close them or merge them together. Not that I don't appreciate having a more relaxed, looser management system here, but there should be some way to get people to search before they hit the New Topic tab. I try to look before I leap in with a new thread, it would be nice if everyone else did likewise.

[WIP]

The United States is one the furthest things in the West from a godless society.

71% of Americans believe in God, while 56% of Americans say religion is very important in their lives. 58% of Americans pray every single day and 39% of Americans attend religious service at least once per week.

Godless society? I don't think so. It's one of the most religious societies in the West.

Source for statisitcs: The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life (2008) -- http://www.pewforum....our-State-.aspx

edit: typos

The problem is that a good portion of that 71% who believe in God, are worshipping a God that has been fashioned to their own liking: a God that rewards materialism and accumulation of wealth, while providing justification for abandoning the poor; a God that has decided for some reason that even though he has an entire universe to look after, two countries - America and Israel, were "chosen" by him to be occupied by a small, privileged segment of adventurers and immigrants....and specifically blesses those nations, while not doing a whole lot for anyone else on this planet! A God that says:'don't worry about environmental concerns...those people are pantheists who worship nature....go ahead, use this world for whatever you want and think nothing of the consequences of your actions in pursuit of wealth....it's all going to be over soon anyway, when I Rapture you and the chosen believers and blow this pile of rocks to hell.'

If America's mostly Christian population were worshiping a God that took them to task for falling short and contributing to the suffering of others, and fouling this giant nest that we all live in...I would say that those God-believers would be several steps ahead of the hedonistic, self-centered, materialistic atheists, who mock the others for their supernatural beliefs, but share all the bad naturalistic assumptions about how a society should work that the right wing evangelicals believe in.

[Guest Manny]

No one.

It has happened before, and will again. It isnt new, nor is it particularly shocking.

Oh theres doubt. MAss killings have gone down since the peak of 1929.

Funny that huh?

Are you saying you feel no emotion over this, guyser?

[betsy]

I don't think that there are more monsters.... They have access to better weaponry is one problem.

You must've missed the knifing incidents I posted in the OP.

[betsy]

The United States is one the furthest things in the West from a godless society.

71% of Americans believe in God, while 56% of Americans say religion is very important in their lives. 58% of Americans pray every single day and 39% of Americans attend religious service at least once per week.

Godless society? I don't think so. It's one of the most religious societies in the West.

Source for statisitcs: The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life (2008) -- http://www.pewforum....our-State-.aspx

edit: typos

Read, Cyber. Read.

From a Christian perspective, I can see how a Godless society is shaping up reflecting that - being God-less.

[guyser]

Are you saying you feel no emotion over this, guyser?

No , I hope that isnt what is being conveyed.

20 kids are now dead. 12 adults were killed in a movie theatre only a while ago. Breivik killed a shitload of kids in Norway. And with what result? There is handwringing , tears , arguments for and against (w against winning the battle) gun control, and nothing seems to change (although it appears this result is becoming less prevelant)

To be honest, I was going to be particularly mawkish w betsy's post. The whole 'made in Gods image' , God's will" and "God has a plan" bullshit that comes from religious purveyors at a tragic time has always irked me no end. If he was as omnipotent as they want to believe, maybe just maybe he could have turned his attention away from trying to keep gays from marrying and worry about the 'people he made in his image' from fucking up a whole communities children.

Was going to say it would be in bad taste......but then again, I just posted the above so.....

ETA

I felt this whole thread was a premise on betsy's part to invoke the lack of religion as the (or one of the main) reasons why things like Newtown occur. It smelled like it to me.

Lo and behold , and to her credit, it took 17 replies before that showed up.

We live in a more godless society, and crime, murders and mass murders are dropping.

I certainly feel for the parents who lost kids, that is the ultimate pain for anyone , heathen or not.

Edited December 15, 2012 by guyser

[betsy]

No , I hope that isnt what is being conveyed.

20 kids are now dead. 12 adults were killed in a movie theatre only a while ago. Breivik killed a shitload of kids in Norway. And with what result? There is handwringing , tears , arguments for and against (w against winning the battle) gun control, and nothing seems to change (although it appears this result is becoming less prevelant)

To be honest, I was going to be particularly mawkish w betsy's post. The whole 'made in Gods image' , God's will" and "God has a plan" bullshit that comes from religious purveyors at a tragic time has always irked me no end. If he was as omnipotent as they want to believe, maybe just maybe he could have turned his attention away from trying to keep gays from marrying and worry about the 'people he made in his image' from fucking up a whole communities children.

Was going to say it would be in bad taste......but then again, I just posted the above so.....

ETA

I felt this whole thread was a premise on betsy's part to invoke the lack of religion as the (or one of the main) reasons why things like Newtown occur. It smelled like it to me.

Lo and behold , and to her credit, it took 17 replies before that showed up.

We live in a more godless society, and crime, murders and mass murders are dropping.

I certainly feel for the parents who lost kids, that is the ultimate pain for anyone , heathen or not.

Pardon me Guyser for bringing up my faith. I was responding to a poster who brought up religion and the decline of moral values, as one of the reasons being cited. And I even specified that I'm saying it from a Christian's perspective!

What, I can't express my views as a Christian??? Then get off my thread! I didn't use any alias when I posted this topic - so, if you don't want to hear any Christian references at all, stay away from Betsy! SHOOOOO!

Don't take the whole thing out of context and try to twist it like I brought it up on a whim!

That's being dis-honest! And the irony....did I just say moral values? There you go.

Edited December 15, 2012 by betsy

[guyser]

Pardon me Guyser for bringing up my faith. I was responding to a poster who brought up religion and the decline of moral values, as one of the reasons being cited. So don't take the whole thing out of context and try to twist it like I brought it up on a whim!

That's being dis-honest! And the irony....did I just say moral values?

No betsy, the whole premise of this thread was to bring up your faith.

Lord, you are still SOS arent you?

The 'honest' part was a reply to the query posted .I did not nor would expect you to see that, there has always been a disconnect whenever you post. Refusal to answer questions,circular logic, nonsensical observations.

But once SOS, always SOS.

[betsy]

No betsy, the whole premise of this thread was to bring up your faith.

Lord, you are still SOS arent you?

The 'honest' part was a reply to the query posted .I did not nor would expect you to see that, there has always been a disconnect whenever you post. Refusal to answer questions,circular logic, nonsensical observations.

But once SOS, always SOS.

Whatever.

Bye-bye, guyser dear.....

Edited December 15, 2012 by betsy

[The_Squid]

You must've missed the knifing incidents I posted in the OP.

That makes my point.... In the USA, the monsters have better access to weaponry.

[guyser]

Whatever.

Bye-bye, guyser dear.....

Didnt think you could refute the mere fact that you planned on being SOS with the religion part .

And now you agree. Thanks

[cybercoma]

And that's one of the things that make it so hard to get involved in a hot topic on this board! There usually ends up with 15 different threads on the same topic. It's like with the M.E. and area threads; by the time I notice one, there are three or four others that are identical, and I don't know which one to drop in on.

It's easier to get involved in a discussion on an ignored topic that fewer people are interested in. Some forums that are tightly regulated, will cut off redundant new threads on the same topic, and either close them or merge them together. Not that I don't appreciate having a more relaxed, looser management system here, but there should be some way to get people to search before they hit the New Topic tab. I try to look before I leap in with a new thread, it would be nice if everyone else did likewise.

I think they try to clean that stuff up here, but they rely on people to report it.

If IP.Board software is like other forums, they should be able to merge the topics.

[cybercoma]

Read, Cyber. Read.

Your claim that society is becoming godless is completely unfounded. The United States is furthest thing from godless. I provided data that supports that.

[msj]

What do you say to console a grieving parent?

I meant to link to the same link that AW did but I was unable to find it in time for my post.

But I largely agree with it:

Good question. Here's some good advice, IMO; Dealing With Grief: Five Things NOT to Say and Five Things to Say In a Trauma Involving Children

http://www.huffingto..._b_2303910.html

Btw, for the record, I don't see violence as something "joyful." I don't see the way these children died as something to be "joyful" about.

Sure, but some Christians implicitly (and explicitly it seems) do. After all, wouldn't it be a joy to be called by God to be one of his "angels?"

MSJ's comment seems to make very light of the tragedy that happened.....what with the rolling eyes and all. In poor taste, I'd say.

My comments are not in poor taste since I am sarcastically criticizing the usually Christian lines of "God's will," "being with God," "being in a better place," etc etc.

In other words, those are not my comments.

No, those are terrible things a Christian (or Jew or Muslim) would say.

I wouldn't say something like that since I don't believe in a god.

Most likely I would be in the "I don't know why this happened" and then say as little as possible and listen to what the grieving family member(s) had to say.

A good cry together is more meaningful than some of the nasty things I have mentioned above (and for which I would not say).

[jacee]

From a Christian perspective, I can see how a Godless society is shaping up reflecting that - being God-less.

What Godful society would you point to as an example, where such tragedies don't happen?

[msj]

Your claim that society is becoming godless is completely unfounded. The United States is furthest thing from godless. I provided data that supports that.

Not only that, but even the US is becoming less violent (generally).