Mass shooting

[Wilber]

Thank you for agreeing with the NRA.

d

The NRA has nothing to contribute to a real solution, it just isn't in them.

[bush_cheney2004]

The NRA has nothing to contribute to a real solution, it just isn't in them.

The NRA spends millions on firearms safety and shooting sports in a country where citizens still have the right to bear arms.

[Wilber]

The NRA spends millions on firearms safety and shooting sports in a country where citizens still have the right to bear arms.

Bully for them. Your wonderful right to bear arms. It's too bad you have treated it like a bunch of kids who when given a little freedom, run amok with it.

[bush_cheney2004]

Bully for them. Your wonderful right to bear arms. It's too bad you have treated it like a bunch of kids who when given a little freedom, run amok with it.

It means something to Americans...it means nothing to you...and that's OK.

I don't feel deprived because I can't bludgeon seal pups to death each spring.

[Guest Derek L]

The NRA spends millions on firearms safety and shooting sports in a country where citizens still have the right to bear arms.

Exactly, a private safety program, instead of the State sponsored program here (That borrows from the NRA guidebook)……..

[Wilber]

It means something to Americans...it means nothing to you...and that's OK.

I don't feel deprived because I can't bludgeon seal pups to death each spring.

If I were an American it would mean a lot more to me than what it has been bastardized into.

[bush_cheney2004]

If I were an American it would mean a lot more to me than what it has been bastardized into.

But you're not, so why bother ? Canadians who become American citizens get the right to bear arms, "bastardized" or not.

[Bryan]

The NRA spends millions on firearms safety and shooting sports in a country where citizens still have the right to bear arms.

It's not a right, regardless of what a piece of paper might say. It can be, will be, and regularly IS 'infringed.'

[bush_cheney2004]

It's not a right, regardless of what a piece of paper might say. It can be, will be, and regularly IS 'infringed.'

The US Supreme Court has ruled otherwise, and that means a lot more than your opinion in Winnipeg.

[Guest Derek L]

Read the full transcript of the NRA's speech, didn't see this part brought up in the MSM:

http://o.canada.com/2012/12/21/full-text-of-wayne-lapierres-speech-at-nra-press-conference-on-newtown-massacre/

Our training programs are the most advanced in the world. That expertise must be brought to bear to protect our schools and our children now. We did it for the nation's defense industries and military installations during World War II, and we'll do it for our schools today.

The NRA is going to bring all of its knowledge, dedication and resources to develop a model National School Shield Emergency Response Program for every school that wants it. From armed security to building design and access control to information technology to student and teacher training, this multi-faceted program will be developed by the very best experts in their fields.

Former Congressman Asa Hutchinson will lead this effort as National Director of the National School Shield Program, with a budget provided by the NRA of whatever scope the task requires. His experience as a U.S. Attorney, Director of the Drug Enforcement Agency and Undersecretary of the Department of Homeland Security will give him the knowledge and expertise to hire the most knowledgeable and credentialed experts available anywhere, to get this program up and running from the first day forward.

If we truly cherish our kids more than our money or our celebrities, we must give them the greatest level of protection possible and the security that is only available with a properly trained — armed — good guy. Under Asa's leadership, our team of security experts will make this the best program in the world for protecting our children at school, and we will make that program available to every school in America free of charge.

Paid for by the 4.3 million members of the NRA.

[punked]

Read the full transcript of the NRA's speech, didn't see this part brought up in the MSM:

http://o.canada.com/...wtown-massacre/

Paid for by the 4.3 million members of the NRA.

Yah for some reason I am not ok with the NRA policing the schools. This is a bad idea. It has bad idea written all over it.

[bush_cheney2004]

Yah for some reason I am not ok with the NRA policing the schools. This is a bad idea. It has bad idea written all over it.

They can't do any worse than hug-a-thug liberals.

[Bryan]

The US Supreme Court has ruled otherwise, and that means a lot more than your opinion in Winnipeg.

The supreme court is mistaken. It shall be infringed. It is being infringed, regularly.

There are restriction as to what arms you can and can't have. There are restrictions as to where you can and can't bring those arms. There are restrictions as to who can and can't own them. And in most cases you need a permit. Permit. You need PERMISSION. If you need permission before you can do something, and even then you can only do it within a set of rules, that's privelidge, not a right.

[bush_cheney2004]

The supreme court is mistaken. It shall be infringed. It is being infringed, regularly.

No, you are mistaking regulation with infringement. A U.S. citizen's right to bear, not just own arms has been upheld. Permits must be granted unless lawful, constitutional reasons exist to deny. From June, 2008's ruling:

In a dramatic moment on the last day of this term, the Supreme Court declared for the first time that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to self-defense and gun ownership.

For most of the last century, the interpretation of the Second Amendment has been that the right to bear arms is a collective right, such as with military service;

Thursday's ruling says gun ownership is also an individual right.

The 5-4 ruling grows out of a Washington, D.C., case in which a security guard sued the district for prohibiting him from keeping his handgun at home. In the District of Columbia, it is a crime to carry an unregistered firearm, and the registration of handguns is prohibited. The rules are so strict, they essentially regulate handguns out of existence. The regulations were intended to curb gun violence in the capital city.

The ruling struck down the ban on constitutional grounds, saying it flew in the face of the constitutional right to bear arms.

...

"Unlike the elitist view that believes Americans cling to guns out of bitterness, today's ruling recognizes that gun ownership is a fundamental right — sacred, just as the right to free speech and assembly."

Obama signaled his approval of the ruling in a statement Thursday.

http://www.npr.org/t...toryId=91911807

http://media.npr.org/documents/2008/jun/scotus_dcguns.pdf

Edited December 22, 2012 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest Derek L]

Yah for some reason I am not ok with the NRA policing the schools. This is a bad idea. It has bad idea written all over it.

Read the speech........They don’t propose to “police the schools”, but offer up their various firearms training institutions, coupled with defence and security experts in-house to work with every single school to help develop a security plan suitable to said school, be it any combination of armed police/guards, security doors/cameras, staff members training programs and evacuation plans etc……….For example, one school in Texas (which just passed legislation allowing teachers CCW at school) might offer defensive training for their staff, another school in upstate New York might have the county hire additional Sheriff’s deputies, or a school in North Dakota might offer security jobs to retired cops or veterans………Like the Obama administration said, one size might not fit all…………..

Remember, this is a non-profit organization offering to pay the bill for every school in the country to develop a security plan that suites their needs……….That is something when a group of 4.3 million people offer a solution to a country of over 300 million at no initial cost to taxpayers.

[Wilber]

But you're not, so why bother ? Canadians who become American citizens get the right to bear arms, "bastardized" or not.

Why bother what?

[bush_cheney2004]

Why bother what?

Why bother debating a concept and citizenship right that applies in another country ? What does it matter to you ?

[Wilber]

Why bother debating a concept and citizenship right that applies in another country ? What does it matter to you ?

I'm not debating it, I'm telling you what I think. Something doesn't have to matter in order to have an opinion on it.

[bush_cheney2004]

I'm not debating it, I'm telling you what I think. Something doesn't have to matter in order to have an opinion on it.

OK...so you think that Americans have "bastardized" a right that has never existed in Canada ? What would be the non-"bastardized" version of this right according to you ?

Edited December 22, 2012 by bush_cheney2004

[eyeball]

Complex problem to solve. Just arming a guard or 2 isn't going to prevent somebody from going into a school with a concealed weapon. You would need security systems like metal detectors, locked doors or door guards or some kind of system to keep unauthorized people out of schools. But even then, a person could just come on to the schoolyard during recess and start shooting without entering the school at all. Arming people in schools doesn't solve a lot.

The NRA isn't against people carrying guns into schools, it's mental illnesses they're gunning for. They'll be checking people against their misfit and loner registry, and shaking them down for violent video games and Gangsta crap.

[Guest American Woman]

What do you think Adam Lantz would have done that day if he didn't have access to guns?

Would the idea ever have occurred to him if there weren't guns in his environment?

Since 1/3 of the mass murders in the U.S. don't involve guns, perhaps he would have done what those murderers did.

Without guns in their environment, the idea of killing school children occurred to Zheng Minsheng, who killed eight school children in China's eastern Fujian province with a knife in 2010; and to Wu Huanming, who killed seven children and two adults and injured 11 other persons with a cleaver at a kindergarten in Hanzhong - also in 2010; and to Fang Jiantang, who slashed more than 20 children and staff with a knife, killing 3 children and 1 teacher, at a kindergarten in Zibo, Shandong province. That was also in 2010. It also apparently occurred to Wang Hongbin, who using an axe, hacked a child and three adults who were accompanying their children on their way to kindergarten in Gongyi City in China's Henan Province in 2011.

Yet all we seem to be hearing about in these threads is the latest school stabbing in China, which only resulted in many injuries - and it's being presented as some sort of evidence that mass school killings can't be carried out with 'knives;' ie: edged weapons. In spite of evidence to the contrary. Interestingly enough, as I read about the rash of such attacks in China (there are several that only resulted in injury - some serious), knives aren't becoming the focus - the focus seems to be on the mental stability of the attacker.

And speaking of edged weapons and mass murder, mass murder without the use of guns certainly occurred to the Islamic extremists who were able to murder 3000 people - not because they had guns, but because they had box cutters.

Edited December 22, 2012 by American Woman

[jbg]

132,000 schools. Putting armed guards in all of them is not realistic. And even if it were possible, well by extension you need armed guards at daycare centers, right? Boy scout meetings? Girl Guides? Soccer and football and baseball practices? What about the malls? Lots of kids hanging around santa right now. Surely there should be a guy with a machinegun standing next to Santa!

Their idea is impractical, unworkable and ridiculous.

The NRA is addicted to the same gun culture Nancy Lanza was.

[Argus]

Since 1/3 of the mass murders in the U.S. don't involve guns, perhaps he would have done what those murderers did.

Maybe, but this notion you fanatical gun culture supporters have that guns don't make it far easier and far more likely that someone will commit murder is patently silly and totally contradicted by all available evidence and statistics. Yes, I suppose he could go from room to room strangling people, or even use a knife. But it's FAR less likely he'd have been able to kill half as many as he did without his high powered assault rifle. Your coming up with the just about the worst possible case in history of mass murder without firearms doesn't change that.

Edited December 22, 2012 by Argus

[Argus]

To try to explain mass school shootings through the fact that guns exist is like trying to explain the al-Qaeda phenomenon through the fact that aeroplanes exist: it fetishises the technical means as a way of avoiding grappling with cultural factors.

I completely agree with the paragraph quoted. Unfortunately, changing the culture isn't going to happen. Therefore, we're left with the task of making it more difficult for such individuals to commit wholesale murder in job lots.

[Argus]

There are thousands of unemployed veterans out there………..We have armed guards protecting money in Canada and the United States, why not our children?

You want to spend tens of billions of dollars to create a massive new government department to put armed guards everywhere there are kids?