First nations patiences waning

[Accountability Now]

It is a simple fact that title was not extinguished throughout most of BC and treaties intended to do that are still being negotiated to this day.

In the wake of these modern treaties that make the comprehensiveness of the royal proclamation seem more like a bad brochure, don't be surprised if many indigenous people east of BC revisit their surrender and so-called treaties with a view to updating them.

Given indigenous people are the fastest growing demographic in Canada they just might do what the Romans never did. I'm reminded of what a medicine man I know told me about when his people conquered someone. They wiped them out to the last man, woman and child so no survivors could or would ever come back to reclaim their title, amongst other things.

I wouldn't hold my breath on that one. Canada is just trying to appease its public image by playing nicely. If it ever came down to it, they would just squash it all.

[TimG]

Have someone from the First Nations go to the US border and have them present their soverign First Nations passport. Because that is again the other part you so seemingly seem to avoid.....its not just Canada that doesn't reconginze the FN soverignty....its the rest of the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroquois_passport

The governments in the United States,[6] the United Kingdom[7] and Canada[2] have refused to endorse the document as valid document for international travel. Additionally, the document does not appear on the list of acceptable identification to cross into Canada. [8] The Iroquois passport has, however, been successfully used for international travel,[9] like the novelty passport of the "Conch Republic" micronation.[10]

The blurb about "Conch Republic" puts the Mohwawk passports in their proper context: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conch_Republic

[Accountability Now]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroquois_passportThe blurb about "Conch Republic" puts the Mohwawk passports in their proper context: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conch_Republic

Yes...I had heard about a person using the Iroquois passport in the UK and being denied entry.

[eyeball]

I wouldn't hold my breath on that one. Canada is just trying to appease its public image by playing nicely. If it ever came down to it, they would just squash it all.

I guess Rome was pretty corrupt and jaded too when it was pushed over. Sounds like it had a lot to do with how easy it was too.

A little too soft and entitled I guess.

Edited April 5, 2013 by eyeball

[Accountability Now]

I guess Rome was pretty corrupt and jaded too when it was pushed over. Sounds like it had a lot to do with how easy it was too.

A little too soft and entitled I guess.

Yes...it would definitely take an overthrow of the Canadian empire. Until then...I'll keep fiddling like Nero.

[jbg]

Well my support is with the first nations on this. They are sovereign, especially in absence of treaty being adhered to.

************************

The feds continuing to force subjugation and assimilation of the first nations needs to stop much like the occupation of lowland Quebec needs to stop, if there is indeed free peoples being subjugated. We are all entitled to our freedom and independence. Subjugation is a corrupt practice of the bygone colonial era. Just greedy people not wanting to loose the benefit of subjugating and enslaving people and their land for their own selfish gain.

***************************

First nations have never given up their sovereignty.

If they were economically self-supporting I'd have no trouble agreeing with you. I have my doubts that the denizens of Attawapiskat could subsist either as hunter-gatherers or through other economic activity on the reserve.

[shortlived]

If they were economically self-supporting I'd have no trouble agreeing with you. I have my doubts that the denizens of Attawapiskat could subsist either as hunter-gatherers or through other economic activity on the reserve.

The whole thing is theirs not just the reserve, the declaration specifically states all land is reserved for the Indians.

[Accountability Now]

The whole thing is theirs not just the reserve, the declaration specifically states all land is reserved for the Indians.

Please quote where it specifically states this.

[jacee]

jbg, on 06 Apr 2013 - 23:08, said:

If they were economically self-supporting I'd have no trouble agreeing with you. I have my doubts that the denizens of Attawapiskat could subsist either as hunter-gatherers or through other economic activity on the reserve.

The whole thing is theirs not just the reserve, the declaration specifically states all land is reserved for the Indians.

True, and Aboriginal rights on all traditional Aboriginal lands are upheld by the Supreme Court: Consultation and accommodation is necessary. Thus the existence of, for example, Attawapiskat's agreement with DeBeers diamond mines for revenue sharing, jobs, etc. The existing mine is not on reserve land, but is on traditional territory used for sustenance by the band, entitling them to revenues and other benefits.

Most of the 'blockades' we hear about are a result of Crown and corporation failure to negotiate appropriate agreements with First Nations for use and destruction of traditional lands.

As you can see here, the business community takes this very seriously:

http://www.canadianinstitute.com/aboriginallaw

So does government:

http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/1100100014649/1100100014653

In fact, I'm surprised that there are still uninformed Canadians assuming that all Aboriginal rights refer only to reserve lands, as that simply isn't true.

[Accountability Now]

Most of the 'blockades' we hear about are a result of Crown and corporation failure to negotiate appropriate agreements with First Nations for use and destruction of traditional lands.

Nope. De Beers had a well documented impact agreement before going into Attawapiskat. The blockade resulted from 'wanting more'.

The Papaschase blockade in Alberta was by a non-recognized band that had its day in all courts. No agreement needed there.

[jacee]

Nope. De Beers had a well documented impact agreement before going into Attawapiskat. The blockade resulted from 'wanting more'.

The Papaschase blockade in Alberta was by a non-recognized band that had its day in all courts. No agreement needed there.

Not quite "all courts":

The court said there was no claim to land, but a claim for compensation can still be made to the court.

[shortlived]

Nope. De Beers had a well documented impact agreement before going into Attawapiskat. The blockade resulted from 'wanting more'.

No the blockade was far more complex. Since the band itself wasn't an official sponsor of the blockade. Spence actually asked them not to.

“In the past, some people lost employment at Victor and others were recently fired and others did not respond to their obligations,” said Mattanais.

There was criticism of not enough aboriginal workers and training, and also that there are discontents due to people who were fired from working at the mine, and thus were not getting any benefit from its operation.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/02/06/chief-theresa-spence-calls-band-council-meeting-to-discuss-blockade-on-road-to-diamond-mine/

Wanting "something"

Edited April 7, 2013 by shortlived

[Sleipnir]

If they were economically self-supporting I'd have no trouble agreeing with you. I have my doubts that the denizens of Attawapiskat could subsist either as hunter-gatherers or through other economic activity on the reserve.

If your community is of few dozen and isolated in the middle of nowhere, how can you honestly expect to have any reasonable economic activity? Yelling at the mining, forestry, agricultural or hydro companies aren't gonna cut it.

[jbg]

If your community is of few dozen and isolated in the middle of nowhere, how can you honestly expect to have any reasonable economic activity? Yelling at the mining, forestry, agricultural or hydro companies aren't gonna cut it.

Maybe the reserve system is doomed to failure in those areas. Or maybe we shouldn't be subsidizing population growth. If the population were at earlier levels caribou hunting would work just fine.

[hitops]

Maybe the reserve system is doomed to failure in those areas. Or maybe we shouldn't be subsidizing population growth. If the population were at earlier levels caribou hunting would work just fine.

But the natives on reserves don't really want to be left alone to their own ways and culture. They want to live modern western lives, and have the rest of us foot the bill for them.

It's insanely expensive to live up north, when you want to have a modern Canadian lifestyle and live beyond the age of 35. I have no problem with people doing that if they want. I have a HUGE problem being forced to pay for them to do so however.

Edited April 8, 2013 by hitops

[jacee]

... maybe we shouldn't be subsidizing population growth.

What does that mean?

What if First Nations stopped subsidizing Canada?

[Smallc]

Oh please

Canada is here, and it isn't going anywhere.

On a side note related to population growth, I can't believe that First Nations and Inuit Health does not cover IUDs. They would save so much money that way.

[jacee]

Oh please

Canada is here, and it isn't going anywhere.

Canada is still being defined.

It is what we choose it to be.

[jacee]

But the natives on reserves don't really want to be left alone to their own ways and culture. They want to live modern western lives, and have the rest of us foot the bill for them.

It's insanely expensive to live up north, when you want to have a modern Canadian lifestyle and live beyond the age of 35. I have no problem with people doing that if they want. I have a HUGE problem being forced to pay for them to do so however.

They're tired of footing the bill for us.

[Smallc]

Canada is still being defined.

It is what we choose it to be.

Yes, we...

[hitops]

They're tired of footing the bill for us.

The majority don't contribute a dime. Is this a joke? If we didn't support them with the trough of government, they would literally starve to death.

It's actually our fault though, for letting this go on for so long. We should have treated them like everyone else a long time ago and cut off the freebee addiction.

Edited April 8, 2013 by hitops

[shortlived]

The majority don't contribute a dime. Is this a joke? If we didn't support them with the trough of government, they would literally starve to death.

It's actually our fault though, for letting this go on for so long. We should have treated them like everyone else a long time ago and cut off the freebee addiction.

You are being pretty ignorant that the first nations that comprise about 10% of the population of Canada were here long before Canada was, and if not for their support from day 1 Canada would never have came to be. From the first cure to scurvy to helping settlments at Montreal, to helping with food source, building the economy with furs, allowing early scouting, defending against american invasion and on and on and on.. you are just simply ignorant of the fact, it is the natives land first, and the rest are people who immigrated later. Most of Canada is Indian land, it was only through unscrupulous land thieves that the perception largely fueled by racist sentiments changed those facts. It is not surprising you don't support a more enlightened, free and fair view of Canadian history. You are showing total ignorance of virtue in view of history, I can't see any information presenting why Indian ownership of Canadians land which most of Canada's wealth comes from shouldn't be recognized as contributions to Canada. You seem to have it in your head that the land is god given to everyone but the people who used it first. Everything in British common law says it is theirs, if not for massive amounts of racism that would be the case. You are forgetting the colonization and occupation of native lands, although not nearly as dishonourable as the US native history, it still is not honourable.

Your position amounts to I'm ignorant, we can get away with stealing the land screw the natives. A very pompous, unenlightened and dastardly position. Canada is suppose to be about cooperation not unilaterial theft.

They are major stakeholders in Canada.

Edited April 8, 2013 by shortlived

[Bryan]

shortlived, you're living in the past.

The people alive today were born into the situation we have now. No one alive on any reserve was an original inhabitant of anything. For them to claim ownership of the whole nation is childish at best. For them to claim a right to my tax money, or to land that I paid for is asinine. The so-called 'first-nations' were immigrants too, primarily nomadic people, and only occupied a small fraction of what is now Canada. They have already been given far more than what was ever promised to them, and it's time for the free ride to end.

[hitops]

shortlived, you're living in the past.

The people alive today were born into the situation we have now. No one alive on any reserve was an original inhabitant of anything. For them to claim ownership of the whole nation is childish at best. For them to claim a right to my tax money, or to land that I paid for is asinine. The so-called 'first-nations' were immigrants too, primarily nomadic people, and only occupied a small fraction of what is now Canada. They have already been given far more than what was ever promised to them, and it's time for the free ride to end.

Exactly. And the free ride is exactly why they remain poor and underprivileged today. Nothing has done them more harm or contributed more to their cultural decay than the handouts.

[Bryan]

Exactly. And the free ride is exactly why they remain poor and underprivileged today. Nothing has done them more harm or contributed more to their cultural decay than the handouts.

Yep. It's the soft racism of low expectations.