First nations patiences waning

[Accountability Now]

The treaties everyone else got are just way too crappy in comparison to modern comprehensive treaties. They could compel us to renegotiate simply by continuing to grow their population, which is already the fastest growing in Canada I believe.

Once they get theirs we could then renegotiate the terms of our relationship with Ottawa/Victoria too. It makes sense the First Nations should go first, they were here before us.

Its going to be a long time before the native population numbers would 'compel' the rest of Canada to renegotiate.

What are you talking about 'us' renegotiating our relationship with Ottawa/Victoria? Do you mean BC's place in confederation?

[Canuckistani]

If the native people think getting more control of land will solve their problems, they will have a lot of disappointment.

Well no. What they envision, many of them, is that they will be landlords and will sit back and collect rent or tribute. Nice work if they can get it, and they can get it if Canadians are stupid enough to pay.

[eyeball]

Its going to be a long time before the native population numbers would 'compel' the rest of Canada to renegotiate.

All in time.

What are you talking about 'us' renegotiating our relationship with Ottawa/Victoria? Do you mean BC's place in confederation?

I mean establishing once and for all who's actually leading our society and who's doing the following, the governed or the government.

I'm thinking along the lines of a code of governance for politicians. Reforms to; parliament, the senate and elections. Granting corporate charters at municipal and regional district level. Regional Resource Management Boards. Making the act of lobbying in secret a crime. Institute a system of sousveillance monitoring. Replace the Freedom of Information Act with a Permission to Classify Act.

Accountability but just not in name only.

[jbg]

Some people pay way more taxes just based on how little they get paid for their hard work with little or no economic incentives but its the life they have.

I don't understand your post at all.

Why don't you just shut up about class warfare in a thread about first nations. All it amounts to is utter ignorance of the fact you live on native land taken from the natives so you get those fat paychecks.

My point goes to the very heart of the problem. I think everyone has a right to an opinion but people not earning the money they're living off of may not understand the working of incentives.

None the less, whining really doesn't belong here. That person getting the tax break deserves the money just for putting up with people like you, ungrateful, and non recognizing of the non monetary contributions people add to society. The world isn't about money it is about people hopefully you'll clue in.

Where did I whine? This post is almost incoherent. You can do better.

Either give the people training and employment or shut up about the fact they don't have a job with a fair wage.

I am all for training. It may be hard to establish much of an economy, beyond maybe tourism, in Attawapiskat.

You offer nothing constructive by whining about the fact you need to pay for the people you are raping for your money.

I pointed it out. My voice wasn't whiny at the time.

[jacee]

It may be hard to establish much of an economy, beyond maybe tourism, in Attawapiskat.I pointed it out.

Unh ... mining the diamonds they sit on perhaps?

[Accountability Now]

Unh ... mining the diamonds they sit on perhaps?

Did the people of Attawapiskat set up the mine? No...it was De Beers. Attawapiskat sits on its ass collecting royalties because this big corporation cares about its image. There is no economy without outside help. Those diamonds would still be sitting there so don't pretend otherwise.

[g_bambino]

Did the people of Attawapiskat set up the mine? No...it was De Beers. Attawapiskat sits on its ass collecting royalties because this big corporation cares about its image. There is no economy without outside help. Those diamonds would still be sitting there so don't pretend otherwise.

DeBeers had to negotiate a deal with Attawapiskat in order to establish the mine; the land is within Attawapiskat's jurisdiction. An economy can be built around a mine--I lived for a while in a functioning mining town in Western Australia. But, it doesn't just work simply because a mine is there; there needs to be proper civic management, as well as effort on the part of inhabitants. One, the other, or both are certainly lacking in Attawapiskat.

[eyeball]

DeBeers had to negotiate a deal with Attawapiskat in order to establish the mine; the land is within Attawapiskat's jurisdiction. An economy can be built around a mine--I lived for a while in a functioning mining town in Western Australia. But, it doesn't just work simply because a mine is there; there needs to be proper civic management, as well as effort on the part of inhabitants. One, the other, or both are certainly lacking in Attawapiskat.

The people who live there need the sort of authority to manage their own affairs that only comes with title or something very close to it. That's what's lacking, because it's in Ottawa's hands.

[g_bambino]

The people who live there need the sort of authority to manage their own affairs that only comes with title or something very close to it. That's what's lacking, because it's in Ottawa's hands.

It's not clear what you mean. They have a local government that has the authority to manage affairs in Attawapiskat. Title relates to individual property ownership.

[Accountability Now]

An economy can be built around a mine--I lived for a while in a functioning mining town in Western Australia. But, it doesn't just work simply because a mine is there; there needs to be proper civic management, as well as effort on the part of inhabitants. One, the other, or both are certainly lacking in Attawapiskat.

An ecomony can be built around the mine as long as the mine is operational. There are many examples of ghost towns created once the mining operations leave so I would say at best, mining creates a temporary economy. Even this De Beers operation has a limited life span. I understand there may be more opportunities available but who will want to invest in that area after what has transpired in the past year.

You are exactly right when you say "effort on the part of inhabitants". The effort shown so far (ie blockades) may limit future investments thus dampening their ecomony.

[g_bambino]

An ecomony can be built around the mine as long as the mine is operational. There are many examples of ghost towns created once the mining operations leave so I would say at best, mining creates a temporary economy.

True. Though, one would think the Band would be using the vast sums it must be receiving from DeBeers to invest in the reserve's future. One would think....

The effort shown so far (ie blockades) may limit future investments thus dampening their ecomony.

Also true.

[ed.: +]

Edited April 22, 2013 by g_bambino

[jacee]

Attawapiskat sits on its ass collecting royalties because this big corporation cares about its image.

There is no economy without outside help. Those diamonds would still be sitting there so don't pretend otherwise.

Ya, same as if you had valuable resources on your land, so no need to 'sit on your ass' denigrating others about it. DeBeers pays Attawapiskat because they own an interest in the land - ie, it's the law. They're hardly doing it because of image, but because they have to.

I could swear I've heard a tone like yours before ... oh ya! Van Ryswyk!

In any case, I was just pointing out to jbg that there are resources and an industry in the area, a fact he seemed unaware of.

Edited April 23, 2013 by jacee

[eyeball]

It's not clear what you mean. They have a local government that has the authority to manage affairs in Attawapiskat. Title relates to individual property ownership.

The sort of authority a nation has where title relates to something more than just fee simple.

If I was the Attawapiskat I would treat the diamonds they are sitting on the way Norway treated their oil, which like diamonds, don't last forever either. Instead of simply using its oil to enrich foreign absentee investors Norway used the proceeds to leverage their nation into what it is today, a nation that can take care of itself and it's own with lots left over to invest in other nations that were too stupid to do the same thing.

The Attawapiskat need to plan for social development, the way a nation or a province on the west coast might when it manages a forest, to provide for things like social benefits and as you say, proper civic management.

You folks are right about one thing, they are doomed if they sit around waiting for Ottawa to provide for them which is why they need to get out from under it's thumb.

Edited April 23, 2013 by eyeball

[Accountability Now]

Ya, same as if you had valuable resources on your land, so no need to 'sit on your ass' denigrating others about it. DeBeers pays Attawapiskat because they own an interest in the land - ie, it's the law. They're hardly doing it because of image, but because they have to.

I could swear I've heard a tone like yours before ... oh ya! Van Ryswyk!

If De Beers found diamonds on my land they would pay me significantly less than what natives get because we don't own sub surface rights. Natives don't own the rights either but they get compensated significantly higher only because of image. Nothing more. De Beers even kicks in jobs, incentives, and other great things for the community only because of image. You or I wouldn't get this...would we?

That Van Ryswyk sure speaks for a growing majority of Canadians. Just wait until voters start voting them in as independents!!

[jacee]

If De Beers found diamonds on my land they would pay me significantly less than what natives get because we don't own sub surface rights.

You are right about that.

Natives don't own the rights either

Wrong about that.

De Beers even kicks in jobs, incentives, and other great things for the community only because of image. You or I wouldn't get this...would we?

No ... as you point out, we don't own subsurface rights.

Aboriginal rights include subsurface rights.

That Van Ryswyk sure speaks for a growing majority of Canadians. Just wait until voters start voting them in as independents!!

Yes, I thought you'd approve ... but I think she's recanted, said it was "inappropriate".

[Accountability Now]

No ... as you point out, we don't own subsurface rights.

Aboriginal rights include subsurface rights.

Aboriginal rights only include subsurface rights where the land claims have stated that. It is not inherent to Aborignal rights even though most native believe this and are fighting for it. For the most part treaties have extinguished such rights and the only compensation these natives get are compensation for impact on hunting lands. To circumvent these claims, the government has passed down mineral rights to provincial jurisdictions and even sold large chunks to private investors so that land claims can't exist.

Yes, I thought you'd approve ... but I think she's recanted, said it was "inappropriate".

She recanted because she's trying to save her political career. It doesn't mean she actually thinks it inappropriate. She just has to say that to appease the image. Again....image Jacee. That's what this is all about. Everyone is always tyring to look good in the eyes of the public especially when it comes to those poor downtrodden natives who had their land taken from them years ago. Everyone loves a victim!

Edited April 23, 2013 by Accountability Now

[g_bambino]

The Attawapiskat need to plan for social development, the way a nation or a province on the west coast might when it manages a forest, to provide for things like social benefits and as you say, proper civic management..

Well, we agree. (Saying that still feels odd...)

[g_bambino]

To circumvent these claims, the government has passed down mineral rights to provincial jurisdictions...

Natural resources have been the jurisdiction of the provinces since 1867.

[eyeball]

Well, we agree. (Saying that still feels odd...)

Only superficially though. I'm pretty sure your feeling is a fleeting one.

[eyeball]

Natural resources have been the jurisdiction of the provinces since 1867.

Excuse me?

[jacee]

Aboriginal rights only include subsurface rights where the land claims have stated that. It is not inherent to Aborignal rights even though most native believe this and are fighting for it. For the most part treaties have extinguished such rights and the only compensation these natives get are compensation for impact on hunting lands. To circumvent these claims, the government has passed down mineral rights to provincial jurisdictions and even sold large chunks to private investors so that land claims can't exist.

That's a bit of a mishmash of half truths.

Aboriginal subsurface rights exist unless specifically surrendered.

Government "sharp dealing", specifically forbidden by the Supreme Court, like selling off land under claim, does not negate those claims: Other land or financial compensation may be used to settle the claim, however.

She recanted because she's trying to save her political career. It doesn't mean she actually thinks it inappropriate. She just has to say that to appease the image.

Ahh ... she's just lying you mean.

There's no "majority" in Canada, growing or otherwise, who supports such statements.

But the numbers will tell the tale.

And you can read her apologies here to see if you think she's lying to improve her image.

http://www.kelownacapnews.com/opinion/203683291.html

Everyone is always tyring to look good in the eyes of the public especially when it comes to those poor downtrodden natives who had their land taken from them years ago.

And their children ... don't forget that their children were taken away from them too. Edited April 23, 2013 by jacee

[jbg]

The Attawapiskat need to plan for social development, the way a nation or a province on the west coast might when it manages a forest, to provide for things like social benefits and as you say, proper civic management.

I am quite sure that Spence, the Attawapiskat bank leader, has lots of plans, but it's not for things like social development or benefits.

You folks are right about one thing, they are doomed if they sit around waiting for Ottawa to provide for them which is why they need to get out from under it's thumb.

If Spence won't help why should Ottawa? Edited April 24, 2013 by jbg

[BubberMiley]

I am quite sure that Spence, the Attawapiskat bank leader, has lots of plans, bu tit's not for things like social development or benefits.If Spence won't help why should Ottawa?

I'm confused. Is she your "political hero" or isn't she?

[jbg]

I'm confused. Is she your "political hero" or isn't she?

Hardly my hero. Yours?

[BubberMiley]

Hardly my hero. Yours?

No, not at all. I was just wondering because it says she's your hero right below your name. I guess that's just sarcasm like your claim that you aren't a far-right Republican.