Smallc Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 No, the F-18 Super Hornet is a strike fighter first, that's why you want to buy them ! Bomb truck ! The F-18 we have now is a bomb truck. The F-35 is too. Everything aside from the F-15 (not counting the strike eagle) and F-22 is the same (okay, maybe the Typhoon). I never used that talking point, but if you feel you're being clever, that's fine. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 First of all, the procurement budget (as you already know) was never $16B, but rather $9B. That money is stretched out over 5 - 7 years and will be paid out in small sums over that time at intervals agreed to by the contractor and DND. It comes from - again - the procurement budget. It also includes purchases related to infrastructure, initial spares, weapons, etc. The rest of the $16B is for support and maintenance over the ~20 year life of the aircraft, and is not largely new money. The F-18s, after all, need to be maintained and supported over that time. By all means feel free to provide a source that counters this document, from the Liberal Party of Canada, listing their entire fiscal plan through the 2019/2020 fiscal year. Quote
Smallc Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Hence, the Liberals have no new money budgeted for new fighters within this mandate. So you're telling me that the Conservatives were abandoning another part of the CFDS then? As long as we're clear. Quote
Smallc Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 By all means feel free to provide a source that counters this document, from the Liberal Party of Canada, listing their entire fiscal plan through the 2019/2020 fiscal year. That document says nothing of the portion of the yearly budget dedicated to procurement. Quote
ReeferMadness Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 The F-18 we have now is a bomb truck. The F-35 is too. Everything aside from the F-15 (not counting the strike eagle) and F-22 is the same (okay, maybe the Typhoon). I never used that talking point, but if you feel you're being clever, that's fine. And the Gripen. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Derek 2.0 Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 That seems very optimistic. The F-35 process dragged on for over a decade. If the whole process is being scrapped and started again from scratch, it seems doubtful we'll be seeing any new planes of any sort until the 2020s. Exactly, judging by the fact that they have budgeted no new money for fighters, and they have made a 30 something, from the department of fisheries (that worked namely in HR) the project head, with a staff of 2-3 members, I think optimistic is very polite. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 The F-18 we have now is a bomb truck. The F-35 is too. Everything aside from the F-15 (not counting the strike eagle) and F-22 is the same (okay, maybe the Typhoon). I never used that talking point, but if you feel you're being clever, that's fine. Look, I was in the fleet when F/A-18's were first deployed abck in the 1970's. They are and were multi-role strike fighters. Nobody confused them with Tomcats, or even Bombcats. Canada has long been out of the primo air combat business. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Derek 2.0 Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 That document says nothing of the portion of the yearly budget dedicated to procurement. Of course not, because they have no intention to procure fighters within this mandate......... Quote
Smallc Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Look, I was in the fleet when F/A-18's were first deployed abck in the 1970's. They are and were multi-role strike fighters. Nobody confused them with Tomcats, or even Bombcats. Canada has long been out of the primo air combat business. The Super Hornet is not a direct replacement for the F-14. It still replaced it. Take from that what you will, but it's reality. Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Look, I was in the fleet when F/A-18's were first deployed abck in the 1970's. They are and were multi-role strike fighters. Nobody confused them with Tomcats, or even Bombcats. Canada has long been out of the primo air combat business. And hopefully that's where we will stay. And even if we don't, hopefully we don't single source our way out of it. Quote
Smallc Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Of course not, because they have no intention to procure fighters within this mandate......... And they say otherwise. It's your word against theirs. Given their track record on their word so far, I'm going to side with them until I see a reason to do otherwise. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 So you're telling me that the Conservatives were abandoning another part of the CFDS then? As long as we're clear. Who knows, they never released a fiscal plan with new funding for fighters prior to the end of the decade.....like the Liberals. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 The Super Hornet is not a direct replacement for the F-14. It still replaced it. Take from that what you will, but it's reality. Correct...and Canada wanted that capability but it was too expensive. So it chose the less expensive U.S. Navy carrier based strike fighter with less range, and that is still true for F-18 E/F. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Derek 2.0 Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 And they say otherwise. It's your word against theirs. Given their track record on their word so far, I'm going to side with them until I see a reason to do otherwise. Here's the reason right here: https://www.liberal.ca/files/2015/09/The-Liberal-fiscal-plan-and-costing.pdf By all means, go through it, I could have missed the Billions for new fighters in the next four years. Quote
Smallc Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Who knows, they never released a fiscal plan with new funding for fighters prior to the end of the decade.....like the Liberals. Starting in 2017, 65 next-generation fighter aircraft to replace the existing fleet of CF-18s. These new fighters will help the military defend the sovereignty of Canadian airspace, remain a strong and reliable partner in the defence of North America through NORAD, and provide Canada with an effective and modern air capability for international operations. http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about/canada-first-defence-strategy.page#ql8 Quote
Smallc Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Correct...and Canada wanted that capability but it was too expensive. So it chose the less expensive U.S. Navy carrier based strike fighter with less range, and that is still true for F-18 E/F. And it worked out pretty well, considering. Quote
Smallc Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Here's the reason right here: https://www.liberal.ca/files/2015/09/The-Liberal-fiscal-plan-and-costing.pdf By all means, go through it, I could have missed the Billions for new fighters in the next four years. Apparently you did: http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about/canada-first-defence-strategy.page#ql8 Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Starting in 2017, 65 next-generation fighter aircraft to replace the existing fleet of CF-18s. What does "next generation" mean ? Super Hornets are not "next gen". Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Smallc Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Apparently you did: http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about/canada-first-defence-strategy.page#ql8 Wow, did they ever miss the boat on all of that. Quote
Smallc Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 What does "next generation" mean ? Super Hornets are not "next gen". That's the Conservative document. Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 And they say otherwise. It's your word against theirs. Given their track record on their word so far, I'm going to side with them until I see a reason to do otherwise. And they say otherwise. It's your word against theirs. Given their track record on their word so far, I'm going to side with them until I see a reason to do otherwise. Smart move I'd say. Give 'em a chance. The atmosphere in general seems to be much more optimisitic than it has been in years in this country, and on issues far more varied that this f 35 neanderthal idea. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Starting in 2017, 65 next-generation fighter aircraft to replace the existing fleet of CF-18s. These new fighters will help the military defend the sovereignty of Canadian airspace, remain a strong and reliable partner in the defence of North America through NORAD, and provide Canada with an effective and modern air capability for international operations. http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about/canada-first-defence-strategy.page#ql8 Long since dated, since the previous government never intended to procure the F-35 until it came into full-rate production in 2018-2019......hence no funding for said fighter.......... I'll await for you to highlight the Liberal fiscal plan with the funding framework for new fighters. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 That's the Conservative document. So the "Liberal document" will require any cheap solution regardless of "generation" ? This is all BS smoke and mirrors. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
On Guard for Thee Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 So the "Liberal document" will require any cheap solution regardless of "generation" ? This is all BS smoke and mirrors. But it doesn't hold a candle to the lockmart smoke and mirrors stuff, does it! Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Oh..I get it...change in government....contracts cancelled....fees paid. Rinse and repeat...it is the Canadian way. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
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