F-35 Purchase Cancelled; CF-18 replacement process begins

Smallc · November 17, 2015

Yes..the Sales & Marketing team is still employed, but go count the empty parking lot spaces for production teams. The end is near without a major buy...soon.

And yet it sounds like they plan to bid on Canada's competition, with further details to come in December, according to industry sources.

After all, minister Sajjan's mandate letter makes fighter replacement a priority:

o working with the Minister of Public Services and Procurement to launch an open and transparent competition to replace the CF-18 fighter aircraft, focusing on options that match Canada’s defence needs; and

Was number two on his list of equipment priorities, after ensuring that funding levels are maintained.

Smallc · November 17, 2015

So you are betting Canada's procurement of F-18 Super Hornets on what other nations may or may not do ? I thought this was a Canadian decision. The F-35 has more international sales than F-18's.

And Canada won't be one of those F-35 sales. There's no use losing sleep over it.

Derek 2.0 · November 17, 2015

Is that why Boeing is planning on meeting a smaller order of 36 aircraft for the USN, and possibly 28 for Kuwait?

Exactly, on a production line producing ~15 aircraft a year, through 2018 if the USN orders more.....If Kuwait did purchase the Super Hornet, that would extend the line further...........hence your claim of a Canadian order being completed in 2018 is BS.

bush_cheney2004 · November 17, 2015

And yet it sounds like they plan to bid on Canada's competition, with further details to come in December, according to industry sources.

That is a long way from a signed production order for Super Hornets...Canada will drag this out the way it always does until overcome by events.

Derek 2.0 · November 17, 2015

There is already fighter procurement money in the budget. We were supposed to be procuring them starting in w015 - 2017 anyway, after all.

Source? They keeping 16 billion under the sofa cushions?

bush_cheney2004 · November 17, 2015

And Canada won't be one of those F-35 sales. There's no use losing sleep over it.

Fine by me....my country and several others are not waiting/depending on a decision that Canada has yet to make.

Derek 2.0 · November 17, 2015

That is a long way from a signed production order for Super Hornets...Canada will drag this out the way it always does until overcome by events.

And the lawyers of the losers will stretch it out even further.

Smallc · November 17, 2015

Exactly, on a production line producing ~15 aircraft a year, through 2018 if the USN orders more.....If Kuwait did purchase the Super Hornet, that would extend the line further...........hence your claim of a Canadian order being completed in 2018 is BS.

I didn't say it would be completed, I said it could start then. At a rate of 15 a year, for a 65 aircraft order, that's a 4 year timeline.

Smallc · November 17, 2015

And the lawyers of the losers will stretch it out even further.

I don't see why that's any more likely than when Canada was attempting to sole source the F-35

Smallc · November 17, 2015

Source? They keeping 16 billion under the sofa cushions?

You don't pay for procurement in a lump sum. There is procurement money in every budget year.

Smallc · November 17, 2015

That is a long way from a signed production order for Super Hornets...Canada will drag this out the way it always does until overcome by events.

Of, it won't.

Smallc · November 17, 2015

Fine by me....my country and several others are not waiting/depending on a decision that Canada has yet to make.

Your country will be lucky to get 3/4 of the F-35s originally planned. At the rate your budget is dropping as a percentage of GDP, you might catch us soon.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Smallc

Derek 2.0 · November 17, 2015

I didn't say it would be completed, I said it could start then. At a rate of 15 a year, for a 65 aircraft order, that's a 4 year timeline.

So in your imaginary world, where the Government hasn't budgeted any money for new fighters, Boeing will allow us to queue jump over the USN and Kuwait?

Derek 2.0 · November 17, 2015

You don't pay for procurement in a lump sum. There is procurement money in every budget year.

I know that, and nowhere in their published budget plan is there new money for fighters within the next four years.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Derek 2.0

Smallc · November 17, 2015

So in your imaginary world, where the Government hasn't budgeted any money for new fighters, Boeing will allow us to queue jump over the USN and Kuwait?

The USN hasn't ordered their additional aircraft yet. Still, a 2020 - 2024 production would be just as acceptable.

After all, #2 on Minister Foote's mandate letter:

Work with the Minister of National Defence and the Minister of Innovation, Science and Economic Development to launch an open and transparent competition to replace the CF-18 fighter aircraft, focusing on options that match Canada’s defence needs. - See more at: http://pm.gc.ca/eng/minister-public-services-and-procurement-mandate-letter#sthash.bHAivapK.dpuf

Derek 2.0 · November 17, 2015

I don't see why that's any more likely than when Canada was attempting to sole source the F-35

There are no losers on a sole source bid :rolleyes:

bush_cheney2004 · November 17, 2015

Your country will be lucky to get 3/4 of the F-35s originally planned.

Oh gee...you mean the United States would only have 1800 of 'em ? Still, far more than Canada's ZERO.

Smallc · November 17, 2015

I know that, and nowhere in their published budget plan is there new money for fighters within the next four years.

Considering that they intend to buy them and have stated as much, you're going to have to provide proof of that./

Derek 2.0 · November 17, 2015

The USN hasn't ordered their additional aircraft yet. Still, a 2020 - 2024 production would be just as acceptable.

I know they haven't, nor has Kuwait......hence, sans new orders, the plant shuts down in 2017

Smallc · November 17, 2015

There are no losers on a sole source bid

There are companies that were prevented from bidding. There never should have been a sole source bid. If we'd held a competition, we'd probably be waiting for the F-35s we purchased by now.

bush_cheney2004 · November 17, 2015

I know they haven't, nor has Kuwait......hence, sans new orders, the plant shuts down in 2017

Yep...that's how it works. No rain checks for Canada.

Smallc · November 17, 2015

I know they haven't, nor has Kuwait......hence, sans new orders, the plant shuts down in 2017

I've already told you that's not true, and provided information as such. Further, the USN has ~36 unfunded Super Hornets and Growlers in their budget, and have taken the first steps to get money for some of them. They're doing this, of course, because of the lateness of the F-35.

Derek 2.0 · November 17, 2015

Considering that they intend to buy them and have stated as much, you're going to have to provide proof of that./

Buy what? They haven't selected an aircraft yet..........I don't have to provide proof to your claim that the Government has $16 billion stuffed away for fighter they haven't selected yet. Show me the money!!! :lol:

bush_cheney2004 · November 17, 2015

I've already told you that's not true, and provided information as such. Further, the USN has ~36 unfunded Super Hornets and Growlers in their budget, and have taken the first steps to get money for some of them. They're doing this, of course, because of the lateness of the F-35.

Again...depending on what another nation will/will not do. I thought this was a Canadian procurement / decision ?

Derek 2.0 · November 17, 2015

I've already told you that's not true, and provided information as such. Further, the USN has ~36 unfunded Super Hornets and Growlers in their budget, and have taken the first steps to get money for some of them. They're doing this, of course, because of the lateness of the F-35.

I provided, in the other thread, the DoD 2016 budget framework........no money for any Hornets or Growlers, hence, without new orders, the plant closes in 2017.