SHAME! Our 'Health Care" is the pits in comparison. :(

[waldo]

per the OP 'shame' reference... from the U.S. NYT editorial board: "The Shame of American Health Care". Oh wait, is that me adding to the proffered xenophobia suggestion... or is that simply me showcasing the hyprocisy of someone unwillingly to acknowledge/discuss the comparative failings of his (claimed) country's healthcare system/outcomes while, alternatively, presuming to cast all manner of critical comment and/or aspersion toward Canada's healthcare system/Canadians?

[monty16]

Way to go Waldo! Time to cut through all the US apologizing bullsh-t. There's way too much of that going on in Canada and it's not just with health care.

[Argus]

The reason why the comparison is made between the US and Canada's health care system is because the rabid right think that the US has a wonderful, peachy good system.

You know, reasonably interested people were trying to have a conversation. Inserting your vast ignorance on health care and hysterical hatred of Americans adds about the same to a conversation as when someone releases a noxious emanation of anal gases.

Edited June 14, 2014 by Argus

[Argus]

Well, exactly.

But as the poster already demonstrated, healthcare discussions exist primary to make us feel superior to the Americans - not to actually confer on improving our system.

Only among stupid people. I'm interested more in solutions then jerking off about how great our system is compared to the crappy American one. That's why in any health care discussion I compare us to European nations. If I could, I'd ban anyone from mentioning American health care in the context of a discussion of the Canadian system.

[Argus]

Why is it we can't have a discussion about Canadian health care without ideological zealots turning it into a shouting match about American health care?

[Keepitsimple]

I had a topic on this a couple of years ago but it's worth mentioning again. Here in Canada, we have a tremendous opportunity to develop a best-of-breed medical system. We have 10 provinces - and each are responsible for delivering Healthcare. If provinces were not burdened by the stigma of private medical care (which we already have to some degree) and user fees.....which leads to the inevitable, shrill cry of "two tier" medicine - provinces would be completely free to try innovative new approaches. Just think of us as a giant test lab where each province can learn best practices from the other and work to communize the very best ones. The feds could help out with infrastructure investment funding. The hip and knee replacement clinics work really well.....but it's not for us to come up with the ideas - it's for the professionals. Private medicine has a built-in motivation to efficiency but just as importantly, innovation........and yes, also start churning out more of our own doctors/GPs. All we have to do is stop screaming about Private Healthcare like they've done in most civilized countries.

[Argus]

I had a topic on this a couple of years ago but it's worth mentioning again. Here in Canada, we have a tremendous opportunity to develop a best-of-breed medical system. We have 10 provinces - and each are responsible for delivering Healthcare. If provinces were not burdened by the stigma of private medical care (which we already have to some degree) and user fees.....which leads to the inevitable, shrill cry of "two tier" medicine - provinces would be completely free to try innovative new approaches. Just think of us as a giant test lab where each province can learn best practices from the other and work to communize the very best ones. The feds could help out with infrastructure investment funding. The hip and knee replacement clinics work really well.....but it's not for us to come up with the ideas - it's for the professionals. Private medicine has a built-in motivation to efficiency but just as importantly, innovation........and yes, also start churning out more of our own doctors/GPs. All we have to do is stop screaming about Private Healthcare like they've done in most civilized countries.

Just one quibble. Private medicine's motivation is profit, not efficiency. Now they might seek efficiency on an individual scale, but that can still lead to enormous inefficiencies on a macro scale. Competing hospitals and clinics will all want the best, most expensive, shiniest equipment, even when there isn't the demand for that many of them. That leads to greatly increased costs.

[Keepitsimple]

Just one quibble. Private medicine's motivation is profit, not efficiency. Now they might seek efficiency on an individual scale, but that can still lead to enormous inefficiencies on a macro scale. Competing hospitals and clinics will all want the best, most expensive, shiniest equipment, even when there isn't the demand for that many of them. That leads to greatly increased costs.

I could just as easily make the argument that efficiency leads to profit......and generally speaking, quality of healthcare is dictated by quality of outcomes. I'm not advocating a completely private system which can expose a ruthless search for profit - only a balanced introduction that introduces a level of competition, efficiency and innovation.

[cybercoma]

Aren't we facing exactly the same issues as many European jurisdictions?

Look. Here's how I see it. Country A spends $1000 on health care and has long waits for everything from ER to hip replacement surgeries, long waits to see specialists, and shortages of doctors. Country B spends $1000 on health care and has no shortage of doctors and no waits for ER or specialists or surgeries. So it seems to me that the issue does not involve money. It involves something else. What are we spending our money on that others aren't? What systems do they have in place which we don't? Why is there even a shortage of doctors given how many people want to be doctors? None of this is just about the evil Stephen Harper hating the world and wanting people to die.

Just to start. We don't have enough doctors because the provinces limited the number of places in medical school and because the hospitals limit the number of residencies -- and often give those residency positions to foreign doctors whose governments are willing to pay their salaries in order to get them trained up.

How about another thought. A lot of people have suggested of late that money could be saved by elminating the Catholic school systems to end duplication and waste. Well, why do we need twelve or thirteen separate government medical insurance agencies? Maybe combining them into one national system would save a lot of money and duplication.

You touched on a bunch of different things, but I want to address the doctor shortage thing specifically. I happen to be in a province where it's a serious issue. And you know what the problem isn't? The problem ISN'T not enough doctors. The problem is New Brunswick refuses to give out new billing numbers to practice until another doctor leaves or a doctor retires. They're artificially creating a shortage of doctors.

Now I don't know exactly why they're doing this, but I can speculate. New Brunswick has a stupid debt load. People are flooding out of the province upon graduation to find work out West. That leaves the immobile and retired in the province with a handful of workers. The social services cannot be supported by the people left in the province. That is why there is a federal transfer payment program. That is why there are equalization payments. People who move out West that were originally from the Maritimes pay federal taxes and some of that money comes back to support the services that their aging family uses in the province. New Brunswick, however, still can't afford to provide the standard of care that other provinces have, despite it being a requirement in the Canada Health Act. So, they refuse to give new doctors the billing numbers they need to practice in the province. That's why you have people on waiting lists for a family physician for 3 years and that's why you have the provincial government of New Brunswick being the only one in the entire country that refuses to pay for abortions in clinics, while maintaining a requirement for hospital abortions that was already shot down by the SCC for being too restrictive. The resources are there, but the provincial government is creating an artificial shortage and the federal government isn't stepping in and enforcing the CHA.

[cybercoma]

Because that is the Canadian way. See the book: Yankee Go Home: Canadians and Anti-Americanism by J. L. Granatstein

It's because Canadians aren't stupid enough to want to emulate a health care system that ranks last amongst comparable nations.

[bush_cheney2004]

Gosh...we should all know that people from around the world flock to New Brunswick for world class health care.

[cybercoma]

Gosh...we should all know that people from around the world flock to New Brunswick for world class health care.

Yet, I can still walk into a clinic, be seen by a physician, and referred to a specialist all without paying a dime out of pocket.

[bush_cheney2004]

Yet, I can still walk into a clinic, be seen by a physician, and referred to a specialist all without paying a dime out of pocket.

Sure...as long as you have lots of time on your hands. Or don't need an abortion.

[bush_cheney2004]

This just in...Saudi princes fly to New Brunswick for world class health care !

[On Guard for Thee]

This just in...Saudi princes fly to New Brunswick for world class health care !

Sure...as long as you have lots of time on your hands. Or don't need an abortion.

Or she could slip across the border and wait around to be bankrupted.

[bush_cheney2004]

More shame for New Brunswick...what a great "health care" system....this woman is pissed !

No, Shame on YOU, New Brunswick!

....With the closing of the clinic, women who are faced with an unwanted pregnancy will meet extreme challenges, not unlike those of my Grandmother. Grandma might have had it easier, even. She did not need to find and convince two doctors (in a province with an extreme doctor shortage) to write permission slips deeming her abortion “medically necessary.” She did not need to travel for hours and cross provincial lines to obtain an abortion and while she might have had to pay an exorbitant amount, she was lucky enough to have those resources at her disposal. Without the two doctors’ notes, New Brunswick hospitals charge between 700-850 dollars; an amount that for many woman, can seem practically impossible to obtain.

http://choixnbchoice.org/2014/04/28/no-shame-on-you-new-brunswick/

What's next...approval by the Taliban ?

Edited June 15, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[monty16]

Why is it we can't have a discussion about Canadian health care without ideological zealots turning it into a shouting match about American health care?

Sure! Let's compare ours with France's #1 health care in the world. If Canada could get rid of the Harper rightwing Nazis and elect the Liberals who would concentrate more on social responsibilities then maybe we could be more like France.

But no, the rabid right can't do anything but criticize France for looking after their people.

And try to stay away from the personal attacks o.k. because this isn't about me.

[waldo]

What's next...approval by the Taliban ?

I do believe this blatant and purposeful antagonism requires a ruling... a ruling is in order here... anyone... anyone... anyone...

[cybercoma]

I do believe this blatant and purposeful antagonism requires a ruling... a ruling is in order here... anyone... anyone... anyone...

Nope. Not trolling because you replied to it and quoted it.

[On Guard for Thee]

I have come to the conclusion that the troll has been pretty much sidelined and survives as not much more than a source of humor and maybe a little bit of WTF from time to time. That's my ruling such as it is.

[Keepitsimple]

Why is it we can't have a discussion about Canadian health care without ideological zealots turning it into a shouting match about American health care?

We know the answer - the Left is intractable, unwilling to compromise or rationalize....it's fully government-funded or nothing. While those in the Center or Right look to test moderate European-style reforms and introduce the Private sector to Healthcare, the Left brings up the totally private US bogeyman - and with child-like behaviour and disingenuous scare tactics, shout down any attempt at dialogue.

[Michael Hardner]

While those in the Center or Right look to test moderate European-style reforms and introduce the Private sector to Healthcare, the Left brings up the totally private US bogeyman - and with child-like behaviour and disingenuous scare tactics, shout down any attempt at dialogue.

You know - if we were to break through this issue and create an adequate forum for a public to discuss it, that would likely be a great model to discuss other less contentious issues.

[bush_cheney2004]

We know the answer - the Left is intractable, unwilling to compromise or rationalize....it's fully government-funded or nothing. While those in the Center or Right look to test moderate European-style reforms and introduce the Private sector to Healthcare, the Left brings up the totally private US bogeyman - and with child-like behaviour and disingenuous scare tactics, shout down any attempt at dialogue.

I read a media story about leveraging medical tourism to help fund more staff and facilities in Canada and one critical response to this idea reinforces your point. "Only medical humanitarianism " should be allowed was the contrary, very politicized view. It is as if the opposition to any expansion in private pay / insurance (which already exists in Canada) believes that the public sector owns provincial health care resources by virtue of the single payer insurance system. Any revenue stream that augments or displaces that model, even on a non-profit basis, is perceived as a existential threat to Canada's health care system.

France and other pubic/private systems have been shown to perform much better for cost, wait times, and outcomes, but the obsession on the U.S. will not let any such alternative get serious discussion or consideration.

[Argus]

I could just as easily make the argument that efficiency leads to profit......and generally speaking, quality of healthcare is dictated by quality of outcomes. I'm not advocating a completely private system which can expose a ruthless search for profit - only a balanced introduction that introduces a level of competition, efficiency and innovation.

Profit for health care providers does not necessarily imply an efficient system.

[cybercoma]

Not to mention profitability also doesn't imply acceptable health outcomes.