What Palestinian statehood means for ICC jurisdiction over Israeli cri

[Hudson Jones]

Read an interesting piece on 972mag.com about the implications in regards to tomorrow's Palestinian acceptance as a member state and Israel's conduct on Palestinian territory and the ICC.

this does not mean that we will be seeing Israeli generals and politicians hauled off to The Hague on November 30. The ICC gains jurisdiction only prospectively, so alleged crimes committed before the new member joined are not subject to ICC investigation. Second, the ICC would only have jurisdiction over crimes committed on Palestinian sovereign territory, but where that territory starts and ends is entirely unclear and will doubtlessly be subject to prolonged legal wrangling. Third, even if alleged crimes have been committed (and this needs to be investigated on a case by case basis), because of the ICC complementarity regime, the Prosecutor will only investigate cases that Israel has itself neglected to investigate. Finally, the Prosecutor will only apply his or her very limited resources to those cases considered to be the most grievous violations of international law.

A positive step forward.

[Guest]

Doesn't say anything about crimes committed by Palestinians. Does launching hundreds of rockets at civilian targets not qualify?

[punked]

Doesn't say anything about crimes committed by Palestinians. Does launching hundreds of rockets at civilian targets not qualify?

International Criminal Court goes both ways BCsapper so that is a dumb argument,. In asking for Statehood they are saying they are willing to be held to the same rules as long as someone hold Israel to the rules.

[Guest]

International Criminal Court goes both ways BCsapper so that is a dumb argument,. In asking for Statehood they are saying they are willing to be held to the same rules as long as someone hold Israel to the rules.

Excellent. Israel can tear down the wall and sell the Iron Dome to Assad. Good news indeed.

[bleeding heart]

Doesn't say anything about crimes committed by Palestinians. Does launching hundreds of rockets at civilian targets not qualify?

Are you serious?

[BC_chick]

So Israel believes violent uprising and petitioning the UN for statehood is not the way to go about getting a nation.

Uh huh, do as I say, right?

Oh and congratulations on the vote, Palestine.

[Guest]

Are you serious?

Well, it's just that no-one's cared up to now.

I mean, will rockets into Israel elicit a different response from Hamas's defenders on here, for instance, now that the vote is yes?

Or will it still be Israel's fault anyway?

[dre]

Well, it's just that no-one's cared up to now.

I mean, will rockets into Israel elicit a different response from Hamas's defenders on here, for instance, now that the vote is yes?

Or will it still be Israel's fault anyway?

That entirely depends if the blockade continues.

[Guest]

That entirely depends if the blockade continues.

The blockade can only prevent so much from getting in. There are tunnels from Egypt into Gaza too. I doubt the MB would be too interested in policing those.

[cybercoma]

In other words, not a damn thing is going to change... like I said.

[jacee]

In other words, not a damn thing is going to change... like I said.

That's right.

And real change always begins with the status quo.

I think this gives the Palestinians more bargaining power, and both nations more motivation to negotiate.

Edited November 30, 2012 by jacee

[scribblet]

Exactly what will this upgraded status at the U.N. do for the people, will it give them more money than they allready get

http://www.meforum.org/849/refugees-unto-the-third-generation-un-aid-to

How can you negotiate with terrorists who's top goal is to exterminate and commit genocide against Jews and denounces the right of Israel to exist. Their vision is one state, that of Palestine and no Jews please. Israel should not have to negotiate for the right of the people to exist, that should not be up for discussion, so until "Palestine" recognizes that right, they don't deserve the right to Statehood.

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/m/khaled_meshal/index.html?inline=nyt-per

Khaled Meshal is the leader of Hamas, the militant Islamist group that rejects Israel’s existence and accepts arms and training from Iran.

“If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence; if the Israelis put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel” Benjamin Netanyahu

[wyly]

That's right.

And real change always begins with the status quo.

I think this gives the Palestinians more bargaining power, and both nations more motivation to negotiate.

if it didn't bring changes then it wouldn't have been resisted so strongly...next on the to do list, admission to the ICC... Edited November 30, 2012 by wyly

[wyly]

Exactly what will this upgraded status at the U.N. do for the people, will it give them more money than they allready get

http://www.meforum.o...ation-un-aid-to

How can you negotiate with terrorists who's top goal is to exterminate and commit genocide against Jews and denounces the right of Israel to exist. Their vision is one state, that of Palestine and no Jews please. Israel should not have to negotiate for the right of the people to exist, that should not be up for discussion, so until "Palestine" recognizes that right, they don't deserve the right to Statehood.

http://topics.nytime...?inline=nyt-per

Khaled Meshal is the leader of Hamas, the militant Islamist group that rejects Israel’s existence and accepts arms and training from Iran.

“If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence; if the Israelis put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel” Benjamin Netanyahu

other than revealing the effects of decades of propaganda maybe it's time you started over again find out the real truth behind the situation...

[Rue]

That's right.

And real change always begins with the status quo.

I think this gives the Palestinians more bargaining power, and both nations more motivation to negotiate.

No the opposite I am afraid. Mr. Abbas implemented this move for 2 reasons;

1-to focus attention back to him from Hamas as the leader of Palestinians;

2-to ignore negotiating with Israel directly and continuing a negotiation style of making unilateral demands as preconditions for

negotiating with Israel.

In regards to 1, there is make no mistake a serious breach between Hamas and Abbas who barely can handle his own coalition since the Fatah Hawks of the West Bank have little time for him and are the major physical force on the West Bank for Palestinians and may be the enemy of Hamas but have no qualms about engaging in terror against anyone including their own people. I have seen them in action going door to door beating the crap out of young men and their mothers, Abbas has never controlled them and never will. Never.

Mr. Abbas desperately needed some attention as Iran openly backs Hamas and is against him. Hamas has made it clear it will never recognize Israel or negotiate with them on anything. Their sole solution to the conflict is to turn Jordan and Israel into a Muslim caliphate, period.

Mr. Abbas can not compete with or ever expect to focus attention away from Hamas. They will never sit with him for anything but a staged photo op. Hamas murdered en masse Abbas supporters in Gaza and the blood will never be reconciled its not how Hamas works and once you masacre someone's brother in the Muslim world, they will never be at peace with you. They will never accept peace. It is a cultural fact. It is foolish to think otherwise.

2.Mr. Abbas has zero credibility with Israel which explains part of the reason Netanyahu is such a bull with him and deliberately gives him the finger whenever possible. What people on this forum do not understand is Mr. Abbas stated the holocaust never happened and wrote his thesis non that topic and to this day maintains that belief. No one talks about that and what that means if you are an Israeli who is expected to sit down with him and consider him a moderate,

Secondly, Mr. Abbas stated, as a precondition to any negotiations with Israel the following must be agreed by Israel first;

1-Israel agrees to take in and provide citizenship to any Arab self-identified as a Palestinian and give them full citizenship;

2-give back land to the people in 1 above;

3-not refer to Israel as a Jewish state.

Mr. Abbas also on several further speeches made it clear he would never accept Israel as a Jewish state only a state where the majority of its citizens were Muslims.

This is what is being portrayed by most of you as a moderate position because at the current time Mr. Abbas renounces terrorism.

Because he does not incite violence at the moment, he's called moderate but in fact, his position is no different than Hamas' position. He wants Israel dismantled as a Jewish state and he says so.

This semantic game we play that he recognizes Israel as a state is absolute bull. He does not recognize it as a Jewish state and will only recognize it as a Muslim majority state.

Those positions have always been his positions, and existed long before Netanyahu gavce the green light for expanded settlements. As much as Netanyahu's green light exasperates and serves as an obstacle to peace talks, so does Mr. Abbas and Hamas, who both have made it clear they will never recognize a Jewish state of Israel.

So now Mr. Abbas makes a speech in the UN yesterday and I fail to see the difference between it and what the Iranian President says when he comes. The difference being the Iranian President does not mince words, Mr. Abbas uses semantics.

Who is kidding who? So now he thinks he can ignore Israel and use the status he thinks he has gained Palestinians to simply continue his unilateral demands?

What he does not negotiate with Israel now, he just runs to the UN and asks them to punish Israel everytime they won't agree to his demands?

What bull.

As a thread producer stated, if he thinks this gives him a vehicle now to charge Israeli politicians or soldiers with war crimes, then the same will hold true with him. No longer will he be able to plead ignorance and say oh Fatah Hawks are not part of his state government. How about Hamas?

What does he do with Hamas? Just where is Mr. Abbas' state now that he has asked it be implicitly recognized? What with Hamas who are an international terrorist group? If he recognizes Hamas then they too must come under the umbrella of war crimes.

Bottom line this changes nothing. It simly gives Mr. Abbas an excuse not to negotiate with Israel directly and a new way to call Israel names.

Israel could care less what the UN calls it.

This is the same UN in 1967 that embraced the concept of Zionism being racism, an absurd propoganda sound bite introduced by the Soviet Union to shift Israel from under-dog victim of the Middle East and Muslim apartheid/dhimmitude to suddenly being racists against the very people being anti-semitic to them. Now anti-semitism could be justified as anti Zionism. Now the word Jew could be couched with the word Zionist and all the usual anti-semitic name calling could continue by the Arab world fueled by anti-semites from its European puppet masters in Syria, Iraq and Egypt.

Now the Russians could with great political propriety continue their ancient anti-semitism using the word zionist imperialist.

Now the very victims of European colonialism who escaped it and who escaped the apartheid of Muslim dhimmitude were racist because they did not want to live as second class citizens anymore. Now Jews could be the only people in the world who if they called themselves a collective would be referred to as racist.

To this day the collective Arab world through its Arab League engages in racism against Muslims from Africa, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Indonesia and the

Phillipines and Sudan but no one makes a peep. To this day it disciminates against Christians, Assyrians, Berbers, Kurds, Buddhists, Bahaiis, the few Jews it did not kick out and were forced to flee to Israel, women who demand to be treated as equal, atheists, Zoroastreans, and no one says a peep.

Suddenly a people whose leaders such as Arafat spit at the word Palestinian to describe themselves and only started referring to themselves with that name in 1967 after Jordan foiled their attempt to seize that country-now they are a state.

Bottom line-there is a people for want of a better word now called Palestinians. They are mostly descended from Arrabs who flooded Palestine under British rule and dispossed actual Palestinian Muslims. These descendants now refer to themselves as Palestinians and they include anyone who has moved to the West Bank and stayed there more than a few months as long as they are not Jews.

These people now cal themselves Palestinians. They have factions of cells each led by a leader and on the West Bank held together by a loose umbrella network Mr. Abbas claims to lead. Mr. Abbas can not and has never controlled the armed wing of this network, Fatah Hawks who could and might still in a moment's notice, wipe the whole network out. He's got another portion of his alleged state run by a Syrian dominated cell of Hamas which clings to its control with the help of Assad and Hezbollah and Iran. That cell is a dead enemy of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt which wants Hamas back and is no ally of Assad as it tries to push its supporters to take back Syria from him.

We have in fact a Sunni-Shiite Muslim civil war going on. The spring uprisings are nothing more than a network of Sunni Muslim fundamentalists regrouping to challenge the Shiite dominance of the Syria-Hezbollah-Iran troika.

Having Abbas and Hamas fight over Israel serves as a convenient side show to distract. The fact is the war continues. The fact is Syria and Hamas will go back to the Sunni Muslim brotherhood and then all hell breaks lose in Lebanon as they focus on Hezbollah. Each side will use Israel and Palestine as pawns in their war.

The Arab League, Iran, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon all face civil wars internally in the years to come. They can only use Israel to focus attention away from their internal problems so long.

One would hope true Palestinian moderates and Israelis understand they are equally as expendable in this foolish Muslim civil war and find a way to achieve peace.

[Canuckistani]

How can you negotiate with terrorists who's top goal is to exterminate and commit genocide against Palestinians and denounces the right of Palestine to exist. Their vision is one state, that of Israel and no Palestinians please. Palestine should not have to negotiate for the right of the people to exist, that should not be up for discussion, so until Israel recognizes that right, they don't deserve the right to Statehood.

“If the Arabs put down their weapons today, we could get on with the business of taking all their land with no further violence." Benjamin Netanyahu (What he really meant)

I've edited your post to reflect the other half of the coin. Both sides are equally guilty of this - Israel won't recognize the right of Palestine to exist either.

Edited November 30, 2012 by Canuckistani

[dre]

Secondly, Mr. Abbas stated, as a precondition to any negotiations with Israel the following must be agreed by Israel first;

1-Israel agrees to take in and provide citizenship to any Arab self-identified as a Palestinian and give them full citizenship;

2-give back land to the people in 1 above;

3-not refer to Israel as a Jewish state.

Cite?

[Guest American Woman]

I think the "no" votes and the countries that chose to "abstain" are interesting -

No: Canada, Czech Republic, Israel, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Palau, Panama, and United States of America.

Abstain: Albania, Andorra, Australia, Bahamas, Barbados, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Cameroon, Colombia, Croatia, DR Congo, Estonia, Fiji, Germany, Guatemala, Haiti, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malawi, Monaco, Mongolia, Montenegro, Netherlands, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Poland, South Korea, Moldova, Romania, Rwanda, Samoa, San Marino, Singapore, Slovakia, Slovenia, fYR Macedonia, Togo, Tonga, United Kingdom*, Vanuatu.*

*The U.K. had committed to voting for the resolution if Abbas had shown commitment to resuming peace negotiations without preconditions. Lacking that assurance, Britain abstained from the vote.

The U.S., Canada, Australia, Germany, the Netherlands, and the United Kingdom didn't vote to upgrade the Palestinians' status at the UN from observer to non-member observer state..

Edited November 30, 2012 by American Woman

[dre]

I think the "no" votes and the countries that chose to "abstain" are interesting -

No: Canada, Czech Republic, Israel, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Palau, Panama, and United States of America.

Abstain: Albania, Andorra, Australia, Bahamas, Barbados, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Cameroon, Colombia, Croatia, DR Congo, Estonia, Fiji, Germany, Guatemala, Haiti, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malawi, Monaco, Mongolia, Montenegro, Netherlands, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Poland, South Korea, Moldova, Romania, Rwanda, Samoa, San Marino, Singapore, Slovakia, Slovenia, fYR Macedonia, Togo, Tonga, United Kingdom*, Vanuatu.*

*The U.K. had committed to voting for the resolution if Abbas had shown commitment to resuming peace negotiations without preconditions. Lacking that assurance, Britain abstained from the vote.

The U.S., Canada, Australia, Germany, the Netherlands, and the United Kingdom didn't vote to upgrade the Palestinians' status at the UN from observer to non-member observer state..

Abbas cant get rid of all preconditions, he would be turfed out of office. And the demand for a settlement freeze is totally reasonable and legally justified.

How are two people supposed to negotiate peace while one is still punching the other in the face?

Palestines grievance is here is illegal settlement activity. Israels grievance is terrorism. Obviously there has to be a cessation of this activity by both sides before there can be real negotiations. Abbas has cracked down on militants but Israel has refused to stop building settlements.

Plus why the hell would anyone negotiate a two state solution with a political party (Likud) that has this in their constitution...

“The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs”

Its a non starter. The only way there can be meaningful negotiations is if we get lucky and have more moderate governments on both sides at the same time. Abbas simply does not have a partner in the peace process on the Israeli side. Maybe if we are lucky enough to get a moderate government in Israel while Abbas is still in office something good could happen.

Edited November 30, 2012 by dre

[GostHacked]

Maybe the supporters of Israel can explain why the illegal Jewish settlements in the West Bank are critical to Israel's survival? I'd like an honest no bull answer without the theatrics and emotions brought into it.

[dre]

Maybe the supporters of Israel can explain why the illegal Jewish settlements in the West Bank are critical to Israel's survival? I'd like an honest no bull answer without the theatrics and emotions brought into it.

All you need to do is look in Likuds charter to see why they build them...

“The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.”

[DogOnPorch]

Abbas has cracked down on militants but Israel has refused to stop building settlements.

Do you know why he 'cracked down' on the Ramallah branch? They were shooting at his compound!

Edited November 30, 2012 by DogOnPorch

[DogOnPorch]

All you need to do is look in Likuds charter to see why they build them...

Settlements in Gaza, eh?

[GostHacked]

Up to 3000 New Jewish homes to be built in the West Bank.

But I think this will provide others to call ethnic cleansing when these news homes are a direct push back on the fact that the Palestinians have statehood status. It allows them to play the victim card again.

Those Jews and settlements can be part of a new Palestinian state!!! Or they can simply move back to Israel proper.

OOPS here is the link ..http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20552391

Israel has authorised the construction of 3,000 more housing units in occupied East Jerusalem and the West Bank, according to Israeli officials.

It is also speeding up the processing of 1,000 planning permissions.

The decision comes a day after a vote at the UN General Assembly upgraded the Palestinians' status at the UN to that of non-member observer state.

The US said the expansion plan was counterproductive and would make it harder to resume peace talks.

"We reiterate our longstanding opposition to settlements and East Jerusalem construction and announcements," White House spokesman Tommy Vietor said.

Edited November 30, 2012 by GostHacked

[GostHacked]

Settlements in Gaza, eh?

There are none in Gaza, but its nice to see you bring this up to avoid discussing the ones in the West Bank.