Russian: Yet another victim of terrorism

[Hawk]

Have any of you been following this hostage situation in Russia? I would like to know what some of you think about it, personally I think that this is exactly the reason I believe Terrorists should be exterminated. Whoever uses children as human shields isn't worthy to breathe air, and those who defend their actions are even worse.

[August1991]

This case touches me personally. I don't know what to think exactly.

As a poster to this forum, I suspect that Canadians are smug about this. "I'm OK but these other places have trouble." Extreme smugness? "The rich in these places have caused these problems."

One CBC report I heard? "The Russians have provoked these terrorists to kill these children. The Russians have been despicable in Chechnya."

My honest concern? I know well the metro station in Moscow where the woman killed herself, along with others. I phoned and was relieved.

My colleagues in Quebec are clueless.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Hawk,

Have any of you been following this hostage situation in Russia? I would like to know what some of you think about it,

While it is tragic that so many were killed, especially children, in this instance, it was inevitable given the circumstance. Russia has a much different view of the value of human life, and they probably would have stormed or gassed the building and accepted the large level of casualties anyway.

However, i am guessing this was not your point. So, I'll ask a question. Do you think that those who willingly kill children (or innocents) deserve death?

[August1991]

Russia has a much different view of the value of human life, and they probably would have stormed or gassed the building and accepted the large level of casualties anyway.

You are mistaken, and wrong. I don't know if you are Canadian, but you are very naive about life.

[ceemes]

The Russians are tough and mean bastards in a fight...trouble is they have little in the way of subtlety. I am not sure what happened there, last I heard there were fruitful negotiations happening and hostages were being released.

Two years ago a similar event happened in a movie theatre and the attack by Russian Special Forces ended up killing over one hundred hostages, these time the death count is around 200.

Perhaps Russian Special Forces and Commando’s could use some training in hostage extraction from the SAS or some other world renowned Commando group. And additional training in hostage negotiation from the FBI.

[August1991]

Perhaps Russian Special Forces and Commando’s could use some training in hostage extraction from the SAS or some other world renowned Commando group.

I will pause from your nonsense to say that I too would prefer to live in an ideal world of an insane hijacker, upset with a contract and demotion, who enters a building with a gun or two.

The fire fighters who died in those buildings in NYC, did you see that? Have you been to NYC? Have you seen the hole that was left?

Are you clueless?

We didn't provoke them. We did nothing wrong. We are all like those firemen on the World Trade stairway. We are all like those people on the Madrid trains. We are all like the children in that Russian school.

How have you explained this to kids in Canada you know?

Now, what should we do?

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear August1991,

Are you clueless?

We didn't provoke them. We did nothing wrong.

It is this type of flawed thinking that will not help our cause. It is time to face facts, that we did do something wrong. The US, especially, has supported many murderous dictatorships with nothing but their own interests in mind, most notably below-market oil prices. Many of those oppressed were muslims. They believe that they are now fighting back. Russia has repeatedly oppressed muslims to the point of genocide. If you are willing to say that these actions are not wrong, then you must be prepared to openly declare war on the people in whose lands these riches lie. Most notably, the Arabian Peninsula, but also against Islam. It will be one hell of a battle.

Osama Bin Laden fights not because he 'hates democracy and freedom' as the media so mindlessly parrots. The west must realize this, and soon.

[ceemes]

Perhaps Russian Special Forces and Commando’s could use some training in hostage extraction from the SAS or some other world renowned Commando group.

I will pause from your nonsense to say that I too would prefer to live in an ideal world of an insane hijacker, upset with a contract and demotion, who enters a building with a gun or two.

The fire fighters who died in those buildings in NYC, did you see that? Have you been to NYC? Have you seen the hole that was left?

Are you clueless?

We didn't provoke them. We did nothing wrong. We are all like those firemen on the World Trade stairway. We are all like those people on the Madrid trains. We are all like the children in that Russian school.

How have you explained this to kids in Canada you know?

Now, what should we do?

Your rhetoric and rantings are telling and you completely missed my point.

My main point is, the Russian Special Forces are ill-trained to deal with hostage takings and terrorist actions. They take a blunt hammer approach when what is need is stealth and patience.

During any hostage taking, you use negotiations to defuse the situation, win concessions from the terrorist, namely freed hostages and plan a quick, coordinated counterstrike if need be.

Both the SAS and the Israeli Special Forces have successfully conducted anti-terrorist counterstrikes that resulted in minimal hostage deaths and maximum terrorist kills. These counterstrikes were well planned out and coordinated and lightening fast. An hour into the Russian assult of the school, the battle was still raging and innocent hostages were dying. That is twice in the past two years where the sledge hammer approach of the Russians has caused hostage deaths. They badly need the expertise and training that groups like the SAS or Israelis can offer them.

Lets face it, the Russians and Chechens have been fighting a long and bitter civil war for over two years now and it shows no signs of abating. So you can expect to see even more of these incidents in the future and if the Russians are going to deal with them effectively, then they will need to gain the skills to do so, skills that they are sadly lacking at this time.

Also, the hostage taking in Russia and the WTC attacks while both terrorist operations, are as different as apples and oranges, comparing the two events is dishonest.

[kimmy]

Is anybody very surprised to hear that several of the terrorists were Arab mercenaries?

-kimmy

[idealisttotheend]

kimmy

Is anybody very surprised to hear that several of the terrorists were Arab mercenaries?

What is your point? If it is that we ought to declare Jihad on the Arabs because they're the problem with the world these days, I submit it is a poor one. Islam is coalescing the same way the "free world" has but the majority of Arabs still (and always will) occupy themselves with surviving as best they can and not killing school children.

  theloniusfleabag

Russia has a much different view of the value of human life, and they probably would have stormed or gassed the building and accepted the large level of casualties anyway.

I think the statement "Russia has a much different view of the value of human life" is a dangerous one. It sounds like something one says about the enemy in wartime (and they eat babies too!) but that no one really believes in peacetime. There is no evidence that Russians generally have a lower appreciation for the institution of Life than does anyone else.

I agree that Russians are more apt to storm the building but you have to realize that these terrorists are not going to accept a flight to Cuba and some money and then leave. I suspect that they were quite prepared to die, and that Russia is trying to look tough with a "we won't let terrorists get away with this." Putin is an ex-KGB stongman after all. A messy situation on all sides.

Anyway this particular situation turned out to be what would likely be termed in military parlance as a (technical term coming) "clusterfuck." However it looks like Russia was trying to negotiate (keeping it's soldiers back as part of that) when the terrorists' explosives went off prematuraly, hostages started running and it all went to hell very quickly. I don't think the Russians can be blamed for being completely incompetant since it was the terrorists who couldn't wire their own explosives...though the TV footage of them entering the school didn't make them look all that 'crisp' or flight of foot. Plus some of them got through Russian lines to try and escape which also doesn't look very good.

I do agree the Russian could use some extra training but their whole military is in taters since the fall of communism.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear idealisttotheend,

I think the statement "Russia has a much different view of the value of human life" is a dangerous one. It sounds like something one says about the enemy in wartime

I do not mean to say that Russians at large do not value human life. What my statement means is that Putin does not fear the media, or public opinion, to the same degree as those in the west. To that end, civilian casualties are much more 'acceptable' to Russia than, say, in Texas (unless it's Waco, lol).

I, too, believe that Putin did not intend for this outcome, and that a 'clusterf#ck' did indeed occur. From one of the witnesses reports, it sounds as though a 'booby trap' came unstuck and detonated. I am not sure the Russian troops could have done anything else given this particlar situation.

[JWayne625]

I am Canadian born and raised, however not a proud Canadian. I say that because we sit back and watch things like this happen and smugly say how sorry we are about the tragic loss of life, but we continue to allow our politicians to follow a trend of making sure anything they do is geared towards making sure the corporations maintain their obscene profits, and not to enact any legislation which interferes with those profits. We haven't gotten it at all, we are no safer than our American partner's south of the border, an attack against us could happen at any time. It was not just American's who were killed on 9/11/01, many Canadian's were among those killed. These terrorist's do not distinguish between American's, Canadian's or citizens of other countries of the world, or whether they are adults or children.

This horrendous act of terrorism in Russia is no different than what Hamas suicide bombers are doing to Israeli civilians by walking onto a crowded bus and setting off a bomb made to kill as many as possible. If this is a taste of Islam, then I want nothing to do with a religion that thinks it's okay to kill innocent women and children for the sake of any cause. I don't care what their struggle is, it does not justify the taking of innocent lives!

However I don't think that that mainstream Islamics agree with these tactics, but they allow it to go on just the same, by not raising a finger to stop it. Arafat talks a good talk but does nothing to rein in these militants, and I'm sure that people who are donating money to groups like Hamas and others are helping to dispell that image.

Their newest tactic is to kidnap and kill innocent people and threaten to behead them if their country does not pull people out of Iraq. I'm not talking just soldiers, but civilian worker's who are only there to help rebuild their country, and are not there threatening Iraqi lives.

We need to have our government's put a stop to exporting the corporate agenda around the world. These corporations will only be happy when they control the whole world, and everyone in it. Prophet's predict a world with one government before it all comes tumbling down. :angry:

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear kimmy,

Is anybody very surprised to hear that several of the terrorists were Arab mercenaries?

Not anymore. In the book "Imperial Hubris", the author warns us that the training camps in Afghanistan operated for at least 20 years, and they trained insurgents from many countries and regions. 'Terrorism' training was only one of the 'branches' of these camps. The main point of the training was to develop 'the complete grunt' who was knowledgable on all facets of warfare. 'Terrorism camp' was for only a select minority of those trained.

There may be as many as 100,000 of these 'insurgents' throughout the world, all 'dying for a shot at martyrdom', if you'll pardon the pun.

Russia has unfortunately been practicing genocide against muslims, particularly the Uighers, and this is seen as a direct attack on Islam.

If the US, Russia and China in particular don't watch their step in suppressing Islam (for their own ends), the number of 'jihad warriors' may one day reach a billion.

[takeanumber]

One CBC report I heard? "The Russians have provoked these terrorists to kill these children. The Russians have been despicable in Chechnya."

Sure, blame the victims.

It's digusting when they do that.

Try to rationalize with the enemy.

They truly remind me of a bunch of French socialists from the 1930's.

Nazi sympathizers.

I can't believe anybody would have that sentiment, that somehow they brought it upon themselves.

Give me a break.

Did China bring on the rape of nanjing?

Did the Jews bring on the holocaust?

Did they have it comming?

Disgusting rationalizations. You can't negotiate with people like that, because what they want, we won't do.

Just as my forefathers didn't bend one inch to those Nazi bastards, we're not going to bend one inch to the Arabic-Islam incarnation of the Nazi party.

No way, no how.

[Teddy]

Ex-president of Ingushetia Ruslan Aushev was in collusion with terrorists

It’s very unfortunate what has happened in Russia. But we must remember that these so-called Chechen terrorists are waging a war against the whole humanity. And we’ve never win this war if we don’t know their accomplices. Russians also ought to remember that such helpers don’t always stay out of light. We can often see them on TV and even admire them. The same thing I see in the case of R. Aushev, former president of Ingushetia (one of Russian republic). Why wasn’t it strange for anybody in Russia that only he managed to save more than 20 hostages in North Ossetia? Why did terrorists prefer to talk only to him? Maybe, because they came from his territory or they were good friends in the recent past… I hear he gave refuge to some Chechen militants during his presidency. So I was really shocked when I saw ex-president of Ingushetia looking like a hero in the news of Russian TV. It’s quite clear that terrorists were not able to give up hostages to their old friend? Moreover, they were sure it’d raise his popularity and make it possible for him to run for presidency once again. Unfortunately it worked out as expected…

[August1991]

My main point is, the Russian Special Forces are ill-trained to deal with hostage takings and terrorist actions. They take a blunt hammer approach when what is need is stealth and patience.

During any hostage taking, you use negotiations to defuse the situation, win concessions from the terrorist, namely freed hostages and plan a quick, coordinated counterstrike if need be.

I got your point, ceemes. Did you get mine?

You seem to blame the Russian authorities for the nature of this attack. As you say, "they use the blunt hammer approach". You don't get it.

These people took over a school with over a thousand people, mostly children. They provided no food nor drink. These terrorists were not disgruntled postal workers. Sorry, the SWAT psy-trained negotiators don't work in such a situation. The Russians were not dealing with anything civilized.

I suppose you would say that Stalingrad was destroyed in the Second World War because the Russians took a heavy-handed approach to military affairs.

[ceemes]

My main point is, the Russian Special Forces are ill-trained to deal with hostage takings and terrorist actions. They take a blunt hammer approach when what is need is stealth and patience.

During any hostage taking, you use negotiations to defuse the situation, win concessions from the terrorist, namely freed hostages and plan a quick, coordinated counterstrike if need be.

I got your point, ceemes. Did you get mine?

You seem to blame the Russian authorities for the nature of this attack. As you say, "they use the blunt hammer approach". You don't get it.

These people took over a school with over a thousand people, mostly children. They provided no food nor drink. These terrorists were not disgruntled postal workers. Sorry, the SWAT psy-trained negotiators don't work in such a situation. The Russians were not dealing with anything civilized.

I suppose you would say that Stalingrad was destroyed in the Second World War because the Russians took a heavy-handed approach to military affairs.

Judging from the various press reports, it sounds as if the Russian screwed up by the numbers......big time......

Yes these terrorist had taken kids, teachers and parents hostage, however there were negotiations that were ongoing and some hostages had been released.

Basically, the Russian were ill prepared and ill trained to deal with this situation and innocents paid the price. I don't blame the Russian for the nature of the attack, that blame lays squarely on the shoulders of the terrorist. However, the odds are these types of attacks are likely to continue until some sort of political deal is negoticated between both parties. This being the case, then the Russian had best learn from the pro's on how to deal with them. If they don't, then you can expect a lot more dead innocent civilians. The blunt hammer approach is not the way to go, just ask the SAS or the Israelis.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dea ceemes

However, the odds are these types of attacks are likely to continue until some sort of political deal is negoticated between both parties.

I believe the odds are 100%.

There is a quagmire growing throught this whole thing, one that needs to be addressed before anything can stop. The 'terrorists' (or insurgents), to a certain degree, are fighting against (both perceived and actual) genocide commited by the Russians. The Russians are fighting against genocide by the terrorists. Both sides say that they will not give in to the other.

What needs to be addressed is...what is each side fighting for? The Chechens, in this case, for independence. It is the methods that are wrong to the core. However, if the Russians have indeed commited genocide, have they not legitimized it in the eyes of the Chechens? (Or shoud I say 'Islamists')

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear ceemes,

The blunt hammer approach is not the way to go, just ask the SAS or the Israelis.

The Israelis???? If the use of missiles from an Apache helicopter against a man in a wheelchair isn't a 'blunt hammer' approach, I don't know what is. (I saw Yassin's remains on a Palestinian website. One of the missiles hit him squarely. Not pretty!)

[Guest eureka]

I have been somewhat reluctant to participate on discussions of "terrorism" since there seems never to be anything but passion and a taking of sides. It rarely comes to consideration of what is terrorism and who are terrorists. Nor do the roots of "terrorism" ever seem to be explored..

Were the Taliban, for example, terrorists when they served the purposes of the West? Was the French resistance a "terrorist" organization when it fought the Nazis> Many of its acts fit what we call incidents of terrorism and the Nazis thought of them as such. Was Nelson Mandela a terrorist?

History is filled with such questions.

[ceemes]

Dear ceemes,

The blunt hammer approach is not the way to go, just ask the SAS or the Israelis.

The Israelis???? If the use of missiles from an Apache helicopter against a man in a wheelchair isn't a 'blunt hammer' approach, I don't know what is. (I saw Yassin's remains on a Palestinian website. One of the missiles hit him squarely. Not pretty!)

Yes the Israeli's do use the blunt hammer approach, but I was thinking more along the line of the Entebbe Raid of 1976, not the assassination of Hamas or PLO figures.

The Entebbe Raid was well planned, well executed and highly successful with minimal casualties, only one Israeli Commando and three civilain were killed. All seven terrorist along an unknown number Ugandan soldiers who were guarding both the terrorist and victims were killed.

Then there was the SAS raid on the Iranian Embassy in London 1980.

What is interesting to note, that since both of those actions, neither country has suffered a major terrorist related kidnapping. Car and suicide bombing yes, but now major hostage events. However, Russia has had two, and both have ended badly.

I believe that when the Theater attack two years ago ended badly with the rescuers killing as many victims as the terrorist, the terrorist took note.

I think that the terrorist in the school event were on a suicide mission and planned all along to have the Russian forces commit another botched rescue attemp that would result in many innocent casualties and further discredit the effectiveness of the Russian forces in the eyes of the Russian public. We are already seeing this in the various news feeds out of Russia. People are not questioning the terrorist actions, but rather the actions of the Russian security forces who stormed the school. And to add insult to injury, it is suspected that four of the terrorist actually slipped away and made good their escape.

As much as I hate to say it, this has been both a tactical and propaganda victory for the Chechen rebels and their allies.

[August1991]

As much as I hate to say it, this has been both a tactical and propaganda victory for the Chechen rebels and their allies.

You sit here in Canada and draw conclusions about how millions of Russians perceive these events. Such is punditry.

You seem to have drawn your ideas from events of 25 years ago. If you want to believe in the competence of some, go ahead.

The kind of terrorism we are facing now is of a different order. To my knowledge, flying airplanes into buildings is something new. Mass hostage takings in which children are randomly shot or denied water are new. Even the so-called elite SAS could not have dealt with this any better.

Were the Taliban, for example, terrorists when they served the purposes of the West? Was the French resistance a "terrorist" organization when it fought the Nazis> Many of its acts fit what we call incidents of terrorism and the Nazis thought of them as such. Was Nelson Mandela a terrorist?

Those seem like good questions eureka, but don't fall into moral relativism. The values of the west - freedom of thought and the right to criticize - are worth defending.

Don't, for two seconds, stop and say "We bombed Dresden but then they bombed Coventry." Nobody should bomb anyone, true. But our values are worth defending.

[Guest eureka]

I don't see this as moral relativism. It concerns me that this is part of the dilemma of human relations. Yesterday, relatively speaking, our sympathies were with the Chechens: now they are a terrorist state. Why is this other than our geopolitical interests have changed.

We can say this of virtually every state where terrorism has been a factor in its development. How about Oliver Cromwell and the Roundheads? It seems that terrorists are identified by whether they are on the side of the most powerful or winners.

I agree that this was an act of terrorism. However, is it "freedom fighters" who have lost their values? Our values must be defended but so must those of peoples who do not share ours. Terrorism comes in many guises and in many places. We seem not to call terror those actions that serve us.

[August1991]

I don't see this as moral relativism. It concerns me that this is part of the dilemma of human relations. Yesterday, relatively speaking, our sympathies were with the Chechens: now they are a terrorist state. Why is this other than our geopolitical interests have changed.

My sympathies were never with the violent Chechens. The Russians, over the years, have given the Chechens ample opportunity to assume their sovereignty. Even the most radical Quebec separatist would have been happy with what was offered. Other republics in Russia have accepted and benefited from such terms.

Ultimately though, certain western values are worth defending. The following is not evidence of that.

Margarita Komoyeva, a physics teacher released the day before the terrible climax in Beslan, said: "One of them told me: 'Russian soldiers are killing our children in Chechnya, so we are here to kill yours'."

The words were amplified yesterday on a website that is close to Shamil Basayev, the most extreme Chechen commander, whom Russian officials think was the mastermind behind the Beslan atrocity. "However many children in that school were held hostage, however many of them will die (and have already died) ... it is incomparably less than the 42,000 Chechen children of school age, who have been killed by Russian invaders," said the statement

The Guardian

The journalist presents the Chechen view as truth; they are underdogs who have no means to defend themselves except by slaughtering innocent children.

And there is nothing at all even suggesting the context of this conflict.

What is it about the Left? Why does the Left insist on seeing "small countries" as victims and "big countries" as evil perpetrators?

There is a kneejerk defence of the downtrodden without ever a thought that the downtrodden might be wrong, or manipulative. That's not objective thought; it's superstition.

[Stevenpfo]

Why is it that both sides can't be wrong?

Everyone keeps claiming that Chechnya or Chechen terrorists did this. The Chechen people did not do this nor did they want it. Terrorists done have borders. They come from a country and reside in countries because they have no choice in that. The choice they do have is to become a terrorist. As is obvious in the fact that not all of the terrorists were from Chechnya.

The problem in Chechnya is an old one. Russia took it over and it rebeled on several occasions (1850s, 1919). Then they took the Nazi's side in WW2 probably hoping for freedom again. After Germany lost a large (if not, all) of the Chechens were deported to Kazakhastan (I believe it was there or another place in that region). In 1956 they were allowed to return home. Rising tensions in 1994 led to open warfare between the two and the capital (Grozny) was pounded into the ground.

I've also read that during these periods of turmoil most people in Chechnya packed up and left. To me this says they want no part in the fighting (obviously). I know after Chechnya was granted its freedom Chechnya attacked Russia and I wonder if it was a provoked attack or if it was an attack led by a faction that the government had no control over.

Even if the government had control over them it wasn't a peoples government because the 'democratic' elections in Chechnya have either been one sided or the elections have been rigged.

I think both sides have been wrong on this issue in the way they've handled it. The way they are handling it is NOT going to make anything better. There needs to be a mutual third party intervention. Some proper democratic elections. There is too much hatred now between both factions and terrorists are involved now. Terrorists who could care less about their 'own people' back in Chechnya. The Chechen people are just a pawn for the personal aims of the terrorists.